Extending ring mains from summerhouse to pergola area.

[breezer]

Don't flatter yourself - they're just spying on your wife in the hot tub....

thats not true!, (hot tubs not working yet)

 

[masona]

Don't flatter yourself - they're just spying on your wife in the hot tub....

thats not true!, (hot tubs not working yet)

You're both wrong I haven't got the hot tub yet

 

[masona]

Right next question

I need to run approx 2m 13amp flex cable across my concrete patio and want to buried it in the ground to prevent trip hazard plus making it look tidy. I understand you have to have a minimum depth but in this case I can't.I have 75mm concrete on top of 400mm hardcore, can I just grind out a channel approx 75mm deep and buried a cable conduit in and topped up with new concrete with red cement highlighting the wire is under there. Is this okay ?

What heavy duty conduit would you recommend ?

Question..why does it need to be flexible cable?

13 amp flexible cable (which is supplied by the hot tub company) running from the spa hot tub approx 2m run along the concrete and 2m up to underneath of the summerhouse roof soffit via MK waterproof socket.

Does anyone know if this is okay to do and what heavy duty conduit would you recommend ?

Also what is the correct type of cable should the hot tub company be using as I want to make sure they are following the correct procedure.

Thanks.

 

[masona]

Have I upset you lot

Honest this is the last question as I'm now doing this next

 

[ChrisRogers]

sorry no one likes you..........(joking)

I'm about to install a hot tub soon and was considering mounting an IP56 boox inside the hottub controls and filling it with electricians putty to be extra safe. then I'd take some SY multiflex to an IP56 FCU on the otherside of the patio.

 

[Big_Spark]

Masona, sorry, post got lost in the melay!!

Anyway, I would not advise you to run flex in the manner you are considering.

I would advise you to terminate the flex, in an enclosed space, into an IPX7 rated adaptable box (100x100x50mm), then run either SWA or ArmourFlex cable (SWA is cheaper and easier to obtain) from this adaptabe box, under your patio and into the house.

Remember that the cable needs to be ducted in something, and it needs maker tape above it.

 

[masona]

Sorry I might have mis-led you,

The agreement from the Hot Tub company was they insist I have a MK Masterseal waterproof socket ready for them, they will supply the cable and do the connection run (approx 2m ) to the hot tub to a 13 amp plug via the waterproof socket.

I was guessing they might use a 13amp flexible cable.

I'm buying the Hot tub from www.hotspring.co.uk and they have installation teams which are all factory-trained, so I take it they are fully trained electrician ?????? If not can you tell me what cable they should be putting in so I can see they are following the correct cable procedure for the job.

Thanks for your time.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So it's not the hot tub company planning to bury the cable, it's you. It doesn't sound like they are planning to put any cables in - they are asking you to provide a suitably IP rated socket for them to plug into. If you choose to locate it so that the lead plugged into it becomes an unsightly trip hazard, that is your lookout.

Can you not locate the socket somewhere where it won't be a problem when used, and supply that via buried SWA?

 

[masona]

Can you not locate the socket somewhere where it won't be a problem when used, and supply that via buried SWA?

I understand what you're saying but I'm a bit nervous having the socket near the water area specially with children around if they try to unplug it with wet hands or water and electricity together, would you not agree to have it out of reach approx 4m away from the hot tub with a SY Multi Flex Cables ? I was thinking of other people safety or am I going over the top ?

It doesn't sound like they are planning to put any cables in -

Yes, they put the cable in as some people have it in the middle of the garden away from the socket etc....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I understand what you're saying but I'm a bit nervous having the socket near the water area specially with children around if they try to unplug it with wet hands or water and electricity together, would you not agree to have it out of reach approx 4m away from the hot tub with a SY Multi Flex Cables ? I was thinking of other people safety or am I going over the top ?

Yup, OTT - teach the little blighters to respect electricity.

But seriously, what about of these:

http://www.timeguard.com/details.asp?product=87

Can't open the lid without isolating the socket from the supply.

But not sure if you can get it 4m away - unless they change their standard product. You said they said the hot tub comes with a 2m cable that they expect to be able to plug in.

Yes, they put the cable in as some people have it in the middle of the garden away from the socket etc....

You need to check with them exactly what they will and will not do v-a-v the electrical side of the installation. You say they put the cable in as some people have it in the middle, but you also say "they will supply the cable and do the connection run (approx 2m ) to the hot tub to a 13 amp plug via the waterproof socket"

 

[Big_Spark]

Absolutely NOT, NEVER, NADA, NOT IN A MONTH OF SUNDAYS..

The hot tub is fixed equipment OUTSIDE the equipotential zone..that should NEVER EVER be supplied by a Masterseal socket.

It COULD be supplied by a Commando socket, This should be RCD/RCBO protected (dc sensing RCBO better) and hard wired in situ via a local isolator, preferably one that can be locked off to prevent accident energisation of the pool.

Broadly speaking, hot tubs and spas are covered by Section 602, Swimming Pools

Regulation 602-07-01 covers all switchgear, controlgear and accessories.

In zones A and B, switchgear, controlgear and accessories shall not be installed except for swimming pools where it is not possible to locate socket-outlets outside Zone B, when socket-outlets complying with BS EN 60309-2 may be installed if they are;

(i) more than 1.25 meters outside the border of zone A and

(ii) at least 0.3 meters above the floor, and

(iii) protected by either;

(a) a residual current device complying with the relevent British Standards and with Regulation 412-06-02, or

(b) electrical seperation (Regulation 413-06) with the safety Isolating transformer placed outside zones A, B, or C.

Regulation 602-07-02

In Zone C, a socket-outlet, switch or accessory is permitted ONLY if it is;

(i) protected individually by electrical seperation (Regulation 413-06), or

(ii) protected by SELV (Regulation 411-02), or

(iii) a residual current device complying with the relevent British Standards and having the characteristics as detailed in Regulation 412-06-02, or

(iv) a shaver socket complying with BS3535

602-08 Other Equipment.

602-08-01 Socket-outlets shall comply with BS EN 60309-2.

602-08-02 In zones A and B, only current using equipment designed for use in swimming pools shall be installed.

For those not familiar with the Zones around swimming pools, Zone A is the "container" holding the water, Zone B is the zone Encompassed by a 2 meter area on all sides of Zone A, and Zone C is the area between 2 and 3.5 meters on all sides of zone B.

The Regulations for IP rating of equipment and accessories in these zones is.

Zone A . IPX8 or better

Zone B . IPX5 (IPX4 if jet cleaning will never occur)

Zone C . IPX5 (IPX4 if Jet cleaning will never occur, IPX2 indoors with no jet cleaning likely to occur)


Here is a picture of a socket-outlet complying to BS EN 60309-2. This is a twin unit, but the plug/socket type is correct.

 

[masona]

Can't open the lid without isolating the socket from the supply.

Thanks for that, I've not seen them before.

You said they said the hot tub comes with a 2m cable that they expect to be able to plug in.

No, sorry I mis-led you, the hot tub do not come with any standard length of cable beacause everybody garden layout is difference. (2m is my distance from the hot tub to the socket and at 2m high under the soffit of the summerhouse, total 4m run). All we have to do is to fit the waterproof socket ready for them. This is why I was interested to know what cable would they be using, I know they are factory trained by the company but will they follow the electricity regulations if they're not electrician ?

 

[masona]

FWL_Engineer

I only just seen your post after I was writing mine, must learn to type faster !

Many thanks for the information, I will ring the company and find out what exactly they will be doing and will let you know.

Thanks again.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm quite familiar with IEC-309 "commando" plugs and sockets with datacentre class IT equipment, where they're needed because of their current capacity.

But what makes them desirable for use around swimming pools? Is it just the shrouded pins? All the RCBO protection and isolation stuff could be done just as well with 13A socket outlets.

Is there a definition of a "swimming pool"? I wonder if these people get away with it because their products don't count?

Also, if I've read it correctly, those regs indicate that beyond Zone C, i.e. 5.5m out, masona could use an ordinary socket if he wanted?

 

[masona]

The hot tub is fixed equipment OUTSIDE the equipotential zone..that should NEVER EVER be supplied by a Masterseal socket.

Okay, are you saying I cannot use this which was recommended by the hot tub company ?

(copy & paste from ("TLC Direct")

Aquatec 56
13 Amp Weatherproof 1 Gang Socket

Aquatec 56 is designed for use in areas heavily exposed to dust and splashing water, Ideal in gardens, workshop, industry, garages, swimming pools and farms.

No need to fit expensive specialist plugs to electrical appliances or tools.
With the lid in the closed position and using a standard 13 Amp plug the socket is sealed to IP56 by means of a modular elastic seal.

The socket is injection moulded in ABS/Polycarbonate ensuring a high resistance to impact in extremes of temperature.

Compared to more conventional socket constructions it provides improved resistance to chemicals, fading, discoloration and cracking under exposure to UV