Exterior PIR Light Wiring - Yellow Wire from House - why?

[Don333]

Hi there, first time poster here and a definite non elec-teccy guy! Have just bought a PIR lantern light for the house wall outside our front door (Model 4106 if that means anything to anybody, no manufacturer, bought from a cheap internet supplier)

It comes with its wiring already connected to a 4-section block connector with a diagram on the instruction sheet, showing the light wiring conneced on one side, Yellow/Green Earth, Brown Live ('PIR Wire'), Black ('PIR Wire'), 2 x Blue ('PIR Wire' and 'Lamp Wire')

One of the Blue wires comes from a 5th 2-core cable, the second core being a Brown ('Lamp Wire') which is connected to the other side of the block connector opposite the Black ('PIR Wire')

The diagram shows only three house 'Power Cables' coming in to the other side of the connector, house Brown opposite the lamp's Brown, house Y/G opposite the lamp's Y/G and house Blue opposite the lamp's 2 Blue cables.

Hope this adequately describes the instruction diagram

My problem is that I have 4 (not 3) wires coming out of the house wall, Y/G (earth), Red (Live), Blue (neutral) and a Yellow wire. The house is 1993 vintage and was originally fitted with a PIR front door light which gave up the ghost years ago. I am currently replacing a standard on/off non-PIR light - the yellow cable wasn't connected to anything.

I tried matching the house Y/G earth to the lamp Y/G, the Red to the Lamp Brown and the house Blue to the Lamp Blue, leaving the Yellow unattached with the intention of just operating the light from the wall switch ... result nothing!!

HELP! Where do I attach the House Red and House Yellow? (I assume Y/G to Y/G and Blue to 2 x Blues is correct)

Appreciate anyone taking the time to read this and offer any advice
Many thanks
Don

 

[JohnW2]

I tried matching the house Y/G earth to the lamp Y/G, the Red to the Lamp Brown and the house Blue to the Lamp Blue, leaving the Yellow unattached with the intention of just operating the light from the wall switch ... result nothing!! ... HELP! Where do I attach the House Red and House Yellow? (I assume Y/G to Y/G and Blue to 2 x Blues is correct)

I hope that you had the power to the circuit in question switched off when you were doing this, since one of those (red or yellow from house) might possibly be live all the time, even when the switch is off.

If you had a multimeter and were comfortable using it on a live circuit, then you might be able to work out what's going on. However, to be frank, since (as you say) what you've down with the Y/G and blue is almost certainly correct, there is only one other possibility - to connect the house yellow to the Lamp Brown, leaving the house red not connected to anything (preferably put into a small bit of connector block or suchlike for safety). If that doesn't work, then there is probably something wrong with the supply from the house.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Taylortwocities]

The yellow and/or red may be an over-ride wire.

You' ll need either a multimeter, or you need to find the other end of that 3 core & earth cable. Is there a switch for that light, it probably comes from there.

 

[JohnW2]

The yellow and/or red may be an over-ride wire.

Possibly, although it appears that there was previously nothing to over-ride, but maybe there was even further back in history ...

I am currently replacing a standard on/off non-PIR light - the yellow cable wasn't connected to anything.

You' ll need either a multimeter, or you need to find the other end of that 3 core & earth cable. Is there a switch for that light, it probably comes from there.

It seems that there is a switch...

I tried ... with the intention of just operating the light from the wall switch ...

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, to be frank, since (as you say) what you've down with the Y/G and blue is almost certainly correct, there is only one other possibility - to connect the house yellow to the Lamp Brown, leaving the house red not connected to anything (preferably put into a small bit of connector block or suchlike for safety). If that doesn't work, then there is probably something wrong with the supply from the house.

Don333 - there is also Plan B, which is to never, ever, EVER attempt electrical work on the basis of trying different ways to connect things until you happen to find one which works - it's a stupid thing to do.

Nor should you attempt it on the basis of following instructions to put-this-wire-in-that-hole without knowing why. The only acceptable basis on which to be doing electrical work is one of a full and genuine understanding.

• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=electrical+circuits+101
  
  
• http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=multimeter+101
  
  
• http://kevinboone.net/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:lighting
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  

Either:

• Learn how lighting circuits are wired.
• Get a multimeter and learn how to use it.
• Identify which conductors are which at the switches and the light positions.
• Check for voltage present, circuit continuity, switches working etc.
• Connect everything up properly.

or:

• Get an electrician.

 

[AndyPRK]

If your old basic light was working correctly before removal from the red wire it sounds like you haven't followed the new instructions correctly or the new light could be faulty.

A pic of the new light connector may help. It sounds like it has a lot of connections.

A) you did turn the switch on in the house didn't you?
B) is the new bulb ok? Test or replace
C) have you refitted the basic light and does it still work?

 

[Don333]

Thanks everybody for your kind replies and the time taken to consider this. I followed John's first suggestion to isolate the house red and connect the house red to the light's live, and hey presto, it works perfectly from the switch on the wall inside the door (thanks again, John)

The PIR unit doesn't seem to function but I'm not too bothered about that. It was a cheap internet unit

Re. safety, thanks folks for your understandable concerns.I made sure I knew beforehand which of the fuses in the central fusebox isolated the outside light and that was flipped before I touched the job, so no blue flashes!

All the best
Don

 

[Don333]

Sorry, correction, I connected the house YELLOW to the lamp brown and it's now working ......
D.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks everybody for your kind replies and the time taken to consider this. I followed John's first suggestion to isolate the house red and connect the house red to the light's live, and hey presto, it works perfectly from the switch on the wall inside the door (thanks again, John) ...[ Sorry, correction, I connected the house YELLOW to the lamp brown and it's now working ......

You're welcome, and it,good to hear that is is working, but ....

The PIR unit doesn't seem to function but I'm not too bothered about that. It was a cheap internet unit

That's no good. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean that it shouldn't work!

BAS will not approve, but .... Reading your initial post again, it sounds as if you have connected the 'house yellow' (now clearly the live feed from the switch in the house) to the device's 'switched live' (the device's brown) from the PIR (which goes to the lamp via that '5th 2-core cable') - which would explain the lamp being on permanently when you switch it on (no PIR functionality). If that is the case, then it's almost certain that your house yellow should go to the device's black ('PIR Wire') (hence the 'permanently live' feed to the device), rather than the brown (also 'PIR Wire') to which you have currently got it connected. I would be pretty surprised if the PIR did not then work (remember to isolate the circuit again if you decide to try that).

Re. safety, thanks folks for your understandable concerns.I made sure I knew beforehand which of the fuses in the central fusebox isolated the outside light and that was flipped before I touched the job, so no blue flashes!

That is at least good to hear.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Chris61]

(Model 4106 if that means anything to anybody, no manufacturer, bought from a cheap internet supplier)Don

It's a requirement of BS EN 60598-1 (the safety standard for luminaires) for the manufacturer's name or trademark to be placed on the luminaire (in fact it's a requirement of the Low Voltage Directive).

I wonder what other parts of the standard this luminaire doesn't comply with...

 

[securespark]

Sorry, correction, I connected the house YELLOW to the lamp brown and it's now working ......
D.

The way I wire this kind of circuit is to run a 4 core outside that is:

Red: Permanent Line
Yellow: Switched Line
Blue: Neutral
G/Y: Earth

This way, PIR's can be attached to the cable using all 3 live connections or luminaires using just the switched line and neutral and earth.

 

[JohnW2]

The way I wire this kind of circuit is to run a 4 core outside that is:
Red: Permanent Line
Yellow: Switched Line
Blue: Neutral
G/Y: Earth
This way, PIR's can be attached to the cable using all 3 live connections or luminaires using just the switched line and neutral and earth.

I think many probably use something like that convention. However, what you have written is potentially ambiguous. When you talk of 'permanent live' and 'switched live', are you talking about what comes from the switch/isolator in the house, or the permanent feed to the PIR lamp (usually the 'switched live' from the house) and the (PIR-switched) switched live from the PIR module (used for feeding additional lamps)?

In the OP's case, it appears that the yellow from the house is the supply switched by the switch/isolator, that the red from the house is probably not connected to anything (i.e., as expected, there is no 'always permanent' feed from the house which is not interrupted by the house switch/isolator) and, since the OP is only using the unit's internal lamp, there is no need for a connection to the PIR's PIR-switched-live.

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

 

[JohnW2]

<a diagram>

I'm not totally sure what that diagram is meant to indicate. The colours don't correspond with the ones you mentioned, and I think that some people may be confused by the fact that the neutral appears to be somehow connected to the switch.

In the context of the OP's situation, it would appear that he probably has just an 'isolating' switch, not one which over-rides the PIR.

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

I think we need to have a wip round and buy secure some new felt tips.

The diagram just shows a permanent live and a switched live for override going outside.