Fire detection

[RMS]

Hi all

I’ve been informed that legislation in Scotland is currently changing by stipulating LD3 fire detection in all domestic properties (including existing). So detection in circulation spaces on each level, kitchen and most habitable room through the day.

Also, that sprinkler systems will be a requirement for domestic properties (again, including existing)

A timescale is to be put on this for implementation.

I would appreciate any clarification on this.

Thanks

 

[KenGMac]

RMS, good evening

Appears to be a requirement about to be implemented??

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43443725

Ken

 

[John D v2.0]

Interesting post and a very good idea about changing the debate about safety. They don't mention how it will be enforced and having a CO detector is surely not needed unless you have a gas supply? The smoke alarm part is a nice idea though.
Having said that, no idea why they mentioned Grenfell, the guy was woken by his smoke alarms and called the fire service immediately, but it was still a disaster. So it's not a great example to use really.

 

[KenGMac]

Grenfell is an on going unpeeling of layers of various failings.

For example. Fireman tried to put a hose on to the [by then] burning external cladding,
Today we hear that the flat above was also on fire, gust after the brigade arrived.
The tenant in the flat baled out and took images of the external cladding well alight with a fire crew still in his flat??

A complete catalog of Mis-informed good intentions.

Replace the windows with non-fire retardent [better-More Modern -better insulated ones]

When constructed the tower conformed to the fire safety rules in place at that time, compartmentation, concrete walls between flats and concrete floors

One Hour Fire doors at flat entrances, and at entrance to escape stair wells. Were the doors fir for purpose, and were replacements suitable??

Then to keep the flats warm, and dry [condensation] External insulation?

Wait until all the experts have a pop at cladding a high rise in plastic??

 

[JohnW2]

Interesting post and a very good idea about changing the debate about safety. They don't mention how it will be enforced and having a CO detector is surely not needed unless you have a gas supply? The smoke alarm part is a nice idea though.

Indeed, and I'm not sure I fully understand the logic behind

have at least one smoke alarm installed in the room most frequently used

. I'm not sure why if, despite being "the room most frequently used", the room is actually unoccupied at the time, it needs to be considered differently from any other room. However, if it is occupied (presumably quite often, if it is "the room most frequently used") then one would presumably not need any technology to tell one that the room was filling with smoke - unless it were a bedroom, but that probably could/should be dealt with explicitly.

Kind Regards, John

 

[KenGMac]

There is I believe a gap in the market?

In older properties it is difficult and at times impossible to "Link" all the fire alarms within one property so that if one alarm triggers the other alarms in other rooms are silent.

Why does this matter?

If the alarm triggers in the kitchen but is not hard wired to all the other alarms, in the hall and in the bedrooms then the kitchen alarm is sounding but not easily heard in other rooms?

I inquired about getting a hard wired, linked system installed in a lower flat 1823 property, serious problems, Mini-Trunk everywhere [no] Ornate cornices to circumvent [no]

How about given today's technology that a smoke / CO detection company comes up with a battery operated Wireless alarm system that can be fully linked

Imagine that system in a Grenfell situation? drawback mass evac every time the toaster burns your breakfast?

 

[JohnW2]

In older properties it is difficult and at times impossible to "Link" all the fire alarms within one property so that if one alarm triggers the other alarms in other rooms are silent.

I can't see that it would ever be 'impossible' - but if it's difficult, there are plenty of wireless-linked alarms around.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

In older properties it is difficult and at times impossible to "Link" all the fire alarms within one property

Radio link alarms are available, and have been for years.

battery operated Wireless alarm system that can be fully linked

Batteries won't last long enough with radio links.

Most ceilings already have mains power in them via the lighting circuit, so it's just a case of a mains powered radio linked alarm in each room, 1 cable from the alarm to a nearby light fitting.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They don't mention how it will be enforced

In the same way that all the regulations which applied to Grenfell Tower were enforced.

If the regime is that local authorities do the enforcement, and then people keep voting for political parties who for ideological reasons cut the budgets of local authorities until they go bankrupt, what do people expect to happen?

and having a CO detector is surely not needed unless you have a gas supply?

Or portable gas heaters.

Or portable paraffin heaters.

Or any substances which can emit CO when burning.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm not sure why if, despite being "the room most frequently used", the room is actually unoccupied at the time, it needs to be considered differently from any other room.

Maybe there is a correlation between frequency of occupation and frequency of fires?

 

[JohnW2]

I think I have worked out the logic. Although I would think that it depends crucially upon the type of room, there might well be correlation between the frequency of use of a room and the frequency of fires in that room (when occupied) - but, as I said, one does not need a smoke detector to tell one when an occupied room is full of smoke. One would imagine that (in the absence of alarms) a fire would be least likely to go undetected (by human beings) if it arose in the most frequently occupied room.

However, on reflection, this is probably not primarily about smoke detection but, rather, about linked alarm sounders - since it makes sense to have a sounder in the most frequently used room which will 'sound' in the event of detectors anywhere in the house detecting smoke or heat. In fact, a linked sounder (without any smoke/heat detection capabilities) would probably address that.

 

[Lectrician]

Indeed, and I'm not sure I fully understand the logic behind . I'm not sure why if, despite being "the room most frequently used", the room is actually unoccupied at the time, it needs to be considered differently from any other room. However, if it is occupied (presumably quite often, if it is "the room most frequently used") then one would presumably not need any technology to tell one that the room was filling with smoke - unless it were a bedroom, but that probably could/should be dealt with explicitly.

Kind Regards, John

The most frequently used room has a higher percentage of fires starting than other rooms. You leave the room, knock a candle, a lamp, a cigarette. You have your iPad charger which could end up under news papers, the TV. A regularly used room has a higher chance of a fire starting compared to say the spare bed room.

Our regs for smokes used to include “the principle habitable room”. It no longer does. Ours include kitchens, but only if it is open to the escape route (no door).

 

[bernardgreen]

but, as I said, one does not need a smoke detector to tell one when an occupied room is full of smoke.

not unless the person is asleep when the smoke starts to be produced

 

[JohnW2]

not unless the person is asleep when the smoke starts to be produced

Indeed. That's why I wrote (and didn't bother to repeat when I refered back to it) ....

...However, if it is occupied (presumably quite often, if it is "the room most frequently used") then one would presumably not need any technology to tell one that the room was filling with smoke - unless it were a bedroom, but that probably could/should be dealt with explicitly.

... although I concede that one might fall asleep in a "most frequently used room" even if it's not a bedroom.

However, as I said, I now suspect that the requirement for an alarm in the 'most frequently used room' is probably more to do with having a linked sounder in that room than to having a smoke/heat detector there.

One interesting thing is that in a good few houses I know, the 'most frequently used room' is probably the kitchen. The Scottish regulation we are talking about would then appear to require the room to have a smoke detector, whereas a heat detector would probably be more appropriate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Risteard]

Hi all

I’ve been informed that legislation in Scotland is currently changing by stipulating LD3 fire detection in all domestic properties (including existing). So detection in circulation spaces on each level, kitchen and most habitable room through the day.

I presume you mean LD2.

LD3 has not been allowed in any new work in Ireland or Scotland for decades. Perhaps it's about time England caught up.