Fire rated or not?

[levvy]

Hi. Just been to see a new conversion of 2 flats. For downstairs flat, they want downlights. I quoted for fire rated, but they refused because of cost. They have some not fire rated downlights and they want me to fit them. I told them about regulations and fire safety, but they insist. Should I walk away, or ok to fit them? Can't seem to find a right answer. Thanks

 

[1550]

Totaly depends on the situation you are fitting them in . Check the articles in wiring matters on thr IET site or the relevant building reg . They are not required in all situations.

Edit to add the floors may have adequate fire protection in the contruction .

 

[RF Lighting]

If it's the ceiling between the two flats then walk away.

http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/mag/2005/14b-recessed-luminaires.cfm?type=pdf

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

It will depend as the fire rating is concerned about the spread of fire within the ceiling void and above.
If this is dealt with in another way, it would be possible to fit non fire rated downlights without fire hoods.
But I would stick with this rule of thumb, if the lights are installed between dwellings, ie living accommodation or flats. Go with the fire protection.
It could well be a "can not do" for your own peace of mind and the customers safety.
If you wanted to force your opinion upon them, you could tell them. It will not comply with building regulations and if there was a spread of fire in the property/properties, that could be linked to the ceiling being opened and not being protected for this, their insurances may become invalid.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Could you knock up a short letter addressed to you , for them to sign, to the effect that they are aware that the fitting of these lamps do not provide the required fire protection called for in the building regs and they will accept the responsibility to reinstate the appropriate rating as necessary via some other means?

CYA at all times.

If that doesn't wash, then walk away.

 

[flameport]

Customers signing bits of paper won't help - if fitting these lights compromises the fire integrity of the ceiling, then don't fit them.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Customers signing bits of paper won't help - if fitting these lights compromises the fire integrity of the ceiling, then don't fit them.

Ah, maybe you misunderstand why i mentioned the idea. (and TBF, I didn't fully explain myself)

Presented with a letter to that effect, or at least presented with the suggestion, I hope would provoke the customer to climb down from their position and allow the OP to fit something appropriate, rather than actually using the letter as some kind of risk transfer mechanism.

(its worked for me in the past )

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

^ditto^, definitely walk away.

An expert cannot abrogate responsibility for creating a dangerous situation by getting someone else to accept responsibility, and then deliberatley create the dangerous situation by disregarding his own expert knowledge.

And there will also be damage to the sound proofing qualities of the ceiling.

One might question whether an electrician is deemed to be an expert on fire protection. If the danger created was of an electrical nature, then sure, he can't shift the risk, but if the work is electrically sound and the customer is aware that he is responsible for compliance with BR in general, then i would say that situation is different.

Maybe worthy of debate, but Ive noticed that here lately, 'debateble' issues seem to go on for ever and ever with certain posters (and I think he/they is/are present today), so I'll not bother

(BTW, I only fit fire rated, whether necessary or not. Never had a problem with my approach to customers.)

 

[JohnW2]

Maybe worthy of debate, but Ive noticed that here lately, 'debateble' issues seem to go on for ever and ever with certain posters (and I think he/they is/are present today), so I'll not bother

You called?

You're not going to get any debate out of me on this one, which I personally regard as a no-brainer. As far as I am concerned, if any tradesman or professional is asked to do something which they know to be 'wrong' (morally, professionally, legally or whatever), then they shouldn't do it, whether they are officially an 'expert' in the field or not. Simples. No debate!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Maybe worthy of debate, but Ive noticed that here lately, 'debateble' issues seem to go on for ever and ever with certain posters (and I think he/they is/are present today), so I'll not bother

You called?

Hi John, hope you are well.

You're not going to get any debate out of me on this one, which I personally regard as a no-brainer. As far as I am concerned, if any tradesman or professional is asked to do something which they know to be 'wrong' (morally, professionally, legally or whatever), then they shouldn't do it, whether they are officially an 'expert' in the field or not. Simples. No debate!

Kind Regards, John.

I agree, but with my rather clumsy first post here, I'm not sure that was clear.

 

[JohnW2]

I agree, but with my rather clumsy first post here, I'm not sure that was clear.

Well, I suppose you could have added a bit more information for those who aren't familiar with the approach you were proposing, but I've 'been there' plenty of times myself and have often used a variant of that tactic, so I fully understood what you were getting at. The only suggestion I would add is that it can have more even more impact if one says "My lawyer/insurer/professional body/whatever requires you to sign this..."!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[OwainDIYer]

Alterations to a fire compartment are probably notifiable to Building Control (and outside the scope of Part P self-certification) so unless the client provides plans that have been approved by BC then don't do the work.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It will not comply with building regulations and if there was a spread of fire in the property/properties, that could be linked to the ceiling being opened and not being protected for this, their insurances may become invalid.

If you wanted, you could really drive the point home by putting that in a signed-for letter in which you show that you've copied the local Fire Safety Inspector.