Flush fitting to pendant ....

[cwvxr]

Hi,
Im currently doing the nursery and have removed the flush light fitting that was fitted ,leaving 1 red, 1 switched live black, 1 neutral and earth hanging. I want to fit a nice pendant light. Am I okay to connect these wires to a ceiling rose fitting then buying a pendant lead and fitting that to the ceiling rose?

Thanks,
Chris.

 

[sparkyspike]

As long as it's no heavier than a normal lampshade then you can. Be sure to use the two lugs which hold the flex cables in place.

Most fancy fittings come with their own ceiling rose - if so, use what comes with the new fitting.

 

[cwvxr]

Just been for a second look and have the following :-

3 flex's coming out.
1 with a red ,black and earth
1 with a red, black thats seems live and earth
1 with a red, black (with blue attached via connector block) and earth

All the reds connected together in a connector block.
The black with blue attached on its own.
All the earths twisted together
The other two blacks , one that seems live one not are connected together??

I think the previous occupant has converted a ceiling rose to flush fitting
as per the wiki. Does this sound right to you?

If thats the case , ill change it back to a ceiling rose.

Chris.

 

[rebuke]

Something doesn't sound quite right there - you should in theory only have one switched live (i'm assuming you're identifying this by a black wire with red tape on or similar). With 3 cables, the most common arrangement is that you would have a supply in, supply out to the next room, and a switch wire. With that set up, you should have all the reds connected together, the two neutrals from supply in and supply out, and the neutral from the fitting itself connected, and then the switched live connected to the fitting, and finally all earths connected together.

Having two switched lives is confusing, does the room have an extractor fan or anything like that in there?

 

[cwvxr]

Something doesn't sound quite right there - you should in theory only have one switched live (i'm assuming you're identifying this by a black wire with red tape on or similar). With 3 cables, the most common arrangement is that you would have a supply in, supply out to the next room, and a switch wire. With that set up, you should have all the reds connected together, the two neutrals from supply in and supply out, and the neutral from the fitting itself connected, and then the switched live connected to the fitting, and finally all earths connected together.

Having two switched lives is confusing, does the room have an extractor fan or anything like that in there?

No nothing else in the room. I noticed that the landing light and the next bedroom along lights would not switch on if i didnt connect the two blacks together?

EDIT - Just tested the 2 blacks that are connected , one is live the other is not??

 

[TicklyT]

EDIT - Just tested the 2 blacks, one is live the other is not.

That sounds like you are working on a circuit that's still live

Don't forget a neutral that has been disconnected will carry the full mains voltage depending on the positions of the other switches further 'downstream'

It is connected through the lamp filament(s) and switch(es) to the live conductor of the circuit. This is not an induced voltage, it is a direct connection, making it even more dangerous than a live conductor.

Please make sure the circuit is dead before working on it!

The neutral with no apparent voltage is probably the incoming neutral from the previous light fitting or CU, and the one that appears to have mains voltage on it is probably the neutral connection to the next light fitting in the chain, leaving the single marked switched live as expected.

 

[rebuke]

What were you testing them with respect to - earth or the other black which you believe to be neutral?

Which wires was the light fitting you removed attached to - I suspect that the blacks you believe are switched lives may in fact be the neutrals, and the sole black is the switched live, that would seem to make sense...

Are any of the blacks sleeved, and if so which?

 

[cwvxr]

None of the blacks are marked except for one which is connected to connector block with blue wire the other side (to signify this is a neutral by the looks of it).

I was testing each black individually to see if they were live, one is live the others dont seem to be (bearing in mind i havnt been switching the landing light and bedroom light further down on or off).

But like I say currently all the reds are connected together, the black (with blue) on its own and then the two blacks connected. When i disconnect the 2 blacks the landing light and bedroom light goes off.

What Im struggling to understand is why do i have to connect a none live black to a live on for the other lights to work?

 

[cwvxr]

EDIT - Just tested the 2 blacks, one is live the other is not.

That sounds like you are working on a circuit that's still live

Don't forget a neutral that has been disconnected will carry the full mains voltage depending on the positions of the other switches further 'downstream'

It is connected through the lamp filament(s) and switch(es) to the live conductor of the circuit. This is not an induced voltage, it is a direct connection, making it even more dangerous than a live conductor.

Please make sure the circuit is dead before working on it!

The neutral with no apparent voltage is probably the incoming neutral from the previous light fitting or CU, and the one that appears to have mains voltage on it is probably the neutral connection to the next light fitting in the chain, leaving the single marked switched live as expected.

Aaah, im getting you. I currently dont have a light fitting attached just the wires hanging down. And the light switch in the room hasnt been connected up yet either.

With respect to working on a live circuit, i was aware of this, i just wanted to see which wires were live . Don't worry i do adhere to safety precautions.

 

[rebuke]

So, it depends how you're testing for live - if you're using one of those stupid screwdrivers that lights up, ignore anything it tells you (and throw it away!) - they respond to all kinds of induced voltages etc...

Where does the blue wire go, is it to the light fitting, and in which case where does the brown wire from the fitting go?

It sounds like you have a fairly standard set up, with the sole black being a switched live, the blacks wired together are neutral, and the reds are all live (supply in, out and to the switch).

The reason why if you disconnect the blacks the other lights go out is that you break their neutral connection, without a neutral the bulbs won't light...

 

[cwvxr]

So, it depends how you're testing for live - if you're using one of those stupid screwdrivers that lights up, ignore anything it tells you (and throw it away!) - they respond to all kinds of induced voltages etc...

Where does the blue wire go, is it to the light fitting, and in which case where does the brown wire from the fitting go?

It sounds like you have a fairly standard set up, with the sole black being a switched live, the blacks wired together are neutral, and the reds are all live (supply in, out and to the switch).

The reason why if you disconnect the blacks the other lights go out is that you break their neutral connection, without a neutral the bulbs won't light...

Ive thrown the fitting away at the time i thought oh its usual red/black/earth and switched.

Yes i used the stupid screwdriver

Like you say, sounds like a standard set-up, but now i need to find which one is switched live (not the one with blue attached, i assume this was added to signify its neutral), so that leaves two , the two that are connected to make the other lights work. neither are marked with red tape.

 

[rebuke]

I suspect the one with blue attached may in fact be the switched live, and the brown from the fitting was wired to the neutral (the two blacks) (i.e. someone wired it back to front, possibly as they weren't sure what to wire it to so kept trying combinations until it worked!).

Your two blacks wired together must be the same (i.e. both neutrals or both lives), otherwise when you turned the power on the circuit would trip out, so I'd suggest wiring it between the single black and the two blacks, and see if it works as expected...

 

[cwvxr]

Thanks for all your help.
Im going to buy a ceiling rose kit and put it back to a pendant light.

Ceiling Rose
--------------
All reds together (loop), the one with blue to the switched live, the 2 blacks to neutral and all earths together.

Pendant Flex
--------------
Then the pendant flex will be red to the switched live of the rose, black to the neutrals of the rose and the earth to the earths of the rose.

Sound right ?....

 

[rebuke]

Sounds about right, note though that your pendant will probably be brown and blue rather than red and black...

When you say the one with blue, what exactly is blue about it - is it just a bit of tape (in which case it's probably just mislabelled, once you're sure it's working and that that is the switched live, remove the tape and put some brown / red tape on it), or is there an actual blue wire attached, in which case where does it go?

 

[cwvxr]

Sounds about right, note though that your pendant will probably be brown and blue rather than red and black...

When you say the one with blue, what exactly is blue about it - is it just a bit of tape (in which case it's probably just mislabelled, once you're sure it's working and that that is the switched live, remove the tape and put some brown / red tape on it), or is there an actual blue wire attached, in which case where does it go?

The one with the blue is actaully connected to a little bit of blue wire via a connector block. If like you say its actually switched live , i will remove the blue and put some red tape over.
As for where it was connected I cant quite remember (chucked light fitting away) the wires are just hanging out the ceiling at the mo. But i'm sure it was connected to the blue of the light fitting?, but cant be sure.

EDIT - just connected up the light switch (red to L, black to L1) and the blue does indeed get a voltage when the light switch is switched on.