Garage power

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A friend runs his own prebuilt concrete garage firm and has been dropped in by the electrician he uses again so has asked me if id like to take over the contract. (just passed final exams for year 2 2330 last night)...

anyways just looked at first job and because of certain conditions was wondering if this is acceptable -

fit 13a fcu to downstairs ring to run power to wylex 2way rcd db in garage - has a 6a for lights and 16a for radial to one dble socket. (I know the whole lot is then limited to 13a but cant get feed from main db.

(all work is checked and signed by local authority)
 
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If the downstairs ring is RCD protected there is nothing to be gained by having a second RCD in the shed; either one or both might trip in the event of a fault in the shed.

If the shed is fed from a downstairs ring that is RCD protected, then a fault in the shed will take out the whole downstairs ring in the house which is probably inconvenient at least.

Therefore, if at all possible, it is better to run a new circuit from the non-RCD side of the CU with an appropriate cable size/MCB rating, and then use the RCD CU in the shed as you desribe.
 
Thanks for advise some good points however it is inpossible to come from db without decor damage which isnt an option so looking for a best alternative.
 
What about earthing arrangements?

If it is a sectional garage, I assume it is housed around a metal frame.

(Sorry if it's a silly question, just curious when reading this thread)

Johnnypanic
 
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no they are premade panels of peppledash or renderered boards that interlock and bolt into position i believe - def no steel framework.....
 
fit 13a fcu to downstairs ring to run power to wylex 2way rcd db in garage - has a 6a for lights and 16a for radial to one dble socket. (I know the whole lot is then limited to 13a but cant get feed from main db.

Discrimination?

What if the supply is TN-C-S? Exporting earths?
 
Discrimination?

What if the supply is TN-C-S? Exporting earths?

yes what if? still looking for some advise on accepted alternative method
 
wouldnt that be only if steel or services in garage?
and is that a case of running to rod from db in garage?
and otherwise is coming from fcu ok?
 
Discrimination?

What if the supply is TN-C-S? Exporting earths?

yes what if?
Absolutely nothing if there are no extraneous-conductive-parts in the garage, which there probably aren't

still looking for some advise on accepted alternative method
Is there a separate socket circuit upstairs that's not RCD? Could you come off that and go overhead to the garage?

Where does the supply enter the house? Could you split the tails and run an external cable to the garage?
 
and thats why I value bans opinion ;)

not quite confident enough to mess with tails yet - db is located central of house in full tiled room with paneled ceiling and glued real wood floors above.

all sockets are on rcd:
can I run fcu to non rcd db in garage?
or fcu direct to fcu in garage for radial n lights?

garage only about 4m from back of house
 
Discrimination?

What if the supply is TN-C-S? Exporting earths?

yes what if?
Absolutely nothing if there are no extraneous-conductive-parts in the garage, which there probably aren't

Quotes from another forum from a member who works for a DNO:

"In terms of the PME supply, as others have said, most DNOs do not allow the PME earth to be exported out of the equipotential zone for safety reasons. The earth should be insulated at the "shed" end of the SWA cable, and the shed connected as a TT installation, using an earth rod."

"Under certain system conditions, a voltage can be present between the PME earth conductor and true earth, the most dangerous condition being the fortunately rare "broken neutral" in the supplier's network. The salts inherently present in concrete, actually make it a reasonable conductor, therefore it will be close to "true earth" potential."

"The rule about not exporting PME is actually a condition placed on the installation by the DNOs, not the Wiring Regs. It is interesting that most people are suggesting RCDs and larger bonding conductors as the answer - they are not. The problem is that in certain fault scenarios, it is actually the PME earth conductor which can have a dangerous voltage on it, measured to true earth. As you cannot have a switch or protecive device in an earth conductor, it can still be dangerous even after the RCD / MCB has operated."

"Consider the following worst-case scenario:
A house fed by a 2-wire overhead PME supply. An overheight vehicle brings down the bottom wire (which must be the combined earth & neutral according to the supply regulations).
In the house, everything will stop working, as they now only have a phase, and no neutral return. No mcbs will operate, as there has been no fault in the house, so all loads will remain connected.
Consider the MET:
Connected to the supplier's (now open circuit) earth & neutral conductor. Also through through the cutout to the installation's neutral, then via the resistance of everything switched on to the phase conductor, which is still live.
There will not be a hazard inside the house, as the bonding has caused everything to rise to the potential of the MET - no voltage difference, therefore no electric shock."

No hazard inside the house but imagine the hazard outside of the equipotential zone, a detached garage for example and appliances with exposed conductive parts (class 1). There will now be a potential between their exposed metalwork and true ground.

Now ask your DNO if they allow exporting of earths on a PME supply.
 
yeah interesting stuff and obviously knowledgeable, but wether i need to sort out earthing or not (wont know till i check but fairly sure there is no need) is my installation method acceptable under the circumstances
 
I wasn't aware that exporting the earth was anything to do with the DNO - it's on the consumer's side, and therefore if it complies with BS7671 then by what legal right can the DNO "not allow" the equipotential zone to be extended?

Maybe somebody should tell the IET about this.

Because let's not forget - you aren't doing something dodgy - exporting the earth is extending the equipotential zone, not taking a supply to a different one.

IF the garage floor is an effective e-c-p, and IF it can't be bonded, then you do have a potential problem, but then the IET guidance on exporting a PME earth would already prevent you from doing that.

And the overhead cable failure scenario described would leave people just as much at risk if they were using a portable appliance outdoors on an extension lead, or touching a Class I luminaire, and I've never heard of DNOs trying to "not allow" those, so maybe it's TN-C-S supplies that shouldn't be allowed if the people responsible for them are so concerned that they are unsafe....


all sockets are on rcd:
You could take them off of it, and provide outside RCD sockets.

can I run fcu to non rcd db in garage?
or fcu direct to fcu in garage for radial n lights?
The latter sounds good - not much point in a CU in the garage for a light and a socket if it's all being fed from an FCU.
 

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