Gas fire flu question. It's going to cost me how much?!!

B

Big Tone

I got rid of an old fashioned gas fire in my lounge some time ago which I wanted to replace with a modern one. The old one was of the type where heat just comes out from the top, some brown coloured throwback from the 60s I think with no flames or see-through glass window. So I thought what better and easier than to fit a new one; the gas pipe is there and a right sized looking hole in the wall in roughly the right place.

Now I don’t know if the regulations have changed, or whether the old fire was different in some way, but I was told by a learned friend at work that I’d need to put a chimney flu thing running up the outside of the wall ending somewhere up by the guttering! He also said that it would probably cost me more than the fire because they are made from stainless steel.
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Is this true? Is there a risk or danger from just having it as it was before with a simple short flu ending with a metal grill stuck against the outside wall at hip height? I should mention that I don’t have a chimney. For some reason my attached neighbour does, which makes his lounge much smaller, but I don’t.
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You may still be able to get a balanced flue small room heater with a flue that goes through the room.

There should not be any open fires with that kind of flue. Too unsafe!

So if you must have a gas fire you will need an external twin wall flue going up to probably 1 m above the gutter height.

If you seriously want to progress this get your budget of about £1000 and call a local gas fire shop or installer.

Why not get central heating like everyone else?

Tony
 
B

Big Tone

You may still be able to get a balanced flue small room heater with a flue that goes through the room.
Is that an ugly featureless thing; a modern version of the one I threw out?


There should not be any open fires with that kind of flue. Too unsafe!
Is there a balanced small room heater I can get with fake flames or something?


So if you must have a gas fire you will need an external twin wall flue going up to probably 1 m above the gutter height.
That’s what the guy at work told me
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If you seriously want to progress this get your budget of about £1000 and call a local gas fire shop or installer.
£1,000! I was hoping to stick one in for less than £350. I did consider a flueless one until I read threads here on them
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Why not get central heating like everyone else?
I do have CH but the lounge has no central feature as such. I have a wall mounted telly above a shelf and the icing on the cake would be a nice gas fire complete with real or fake flames . I have a friend who is Gas Safe compliant; 'mate rate'. My thinking was also that once the CH has got the room up to temperature I can turn it off and use the fire to keep the place on tickover.

Cheers Tone
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B

Big Tone

Too unsafe!
I’ve been scratching my head here; where does the “unsafe” bit come into it? I mean what difference does it make such that the flu needs to be heading for the moon? I thought it was just abut getting potentially harmful gases outside.

If. for example, it’s because of the high temperature in the flu and risk to the cavity wall insulation, having a ridiculously long flu isn’t going to make any difference I would have thought. Plus I assume the insulation is fireproof anyway.

If it’s to put the toxic gases high above where any human may be, then why was it okay with the old fire and have the flu end on the outside of the wall. It’s all very confusing but I expect it will come down to my old moan about modern elf n safety and ‘more than my job’s worth’.
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How Homo ever made it to erectus I'll never know. I'm going to put my motorbike biker gear on now and watch the monitor through my helmet...
 
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Too unsafe!
I’ve been scratching my head here; where does the “unsafe” bit come into it? I mean what difference does it make such that the flu needs to be heading for the moon? I thought it was just abut getting potentially harmful gases outside.

I expect it will come down to my old moan about modern elf n safety and ‘more than my job’s worth’.

The physics of chimney design far outdate the HSAW act, Factories Act or even the Titanic. However if you feel your open flue appliance can work safely with a few inches of Kopex shoved horizontally through your wall then carry on. After it's lit you may even get a few seconds to report back before you pass out.
 
E

expertgasman

What is all this nonsense. OP, don't listen to "guys at work", they generally don't know the correct facts. Tony Agile, are you on the dope again?

If you want a nice fire, you can have a glass fronted balanced flue fire, which sticks out of the wall or a power flue fire as in :

http://www.paragonfires.co.uk/media/Downloads/6570 PAR OpenFlameBro_v9 LO RES.pdf

SCROLL DOWN TO PAGE 7

We always the heatsaver option to avoid a draught when the fire is off

OR have I got the wrong end of the stick?

BTW, there is nothing wrong with a flueless, provised the vent is sited intelligently

£350 for the whole project? No chance

Is this a wind up?
 
B

Big Tone

£350 for the whole project? No chance

Is this a wind up?
Not at all, honestly. I was in B&Q last weekend and saw one on offer at £150 off, costing £310. I can fit it myself, or my friend will FOC, so I was looking at paying £310 total until I saw other threads on DIYnot which put me off fluless – hence my new approach here.

It seems daft to run a spur up to the space for an electric fire when I already have a gas supply and 6” hole in the wall but, as I say, I was told I would need to run a ridiculous stainless steel pipe somewhere above the guttering for some reason - or do I??? I'm so confused
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I was hoping to stick one in for less than £350.
Get an electric one, which is easily possible for less than £350.
I always thought electric fires are the most uneconomic of the lot and besides, I would still like a real flame if possible. Also, as I say above, it does seem silly to do so when I already have everything in place for a gas one.

Edit add: Sorry, I meant £329 (I'm sure there was a further reduction down to £310 but I'm put off fluless anyway)
 
B

Big Tone

...However if you feel your open flue appliance can work safely with a few inches of Kopex shoved horizontally through your wall then carry on. After it's lit you may even get a few seconds to report back before you pass out.
I appreciate your help, so please don’t think I’m ungrateful, but I do wish someone would put some meat on these bones. Where does and how do the dangerous fumes get back into my house to kill me and if it’s a risk now then why wasn’t it a risk with the old fire? Am I missing something obvious here?
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B

Big Tone

Talking to myself mode :ON:

Okay, I’ve done some homework..
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It’s all about balanced verses not balanced and now I understand the terminology and reason behind it. If I were to fit a log burner, for example, I would have to use a long pipe outside up past the gutter. The same goes for a gas fire which isn’t balanced. I do not need a long exhaust pipe if it is balanced; it can just be on the outside of the wall like my last one was.

You have to specify what type of balanced flu fire you want as there’s ones suitable for a chimney and others which are designed for ‘through the wall’. A balanced gas fire can, so I believe, have a fan to assist the incoming air and force it around, so I may have to do some electrical work after all.

I feel like I've bought a dog and barking myself here :D Oh well, I’m cooking with gas now - no pun intended...

P.S. Thanks for the link expertgasman, you were spot on. (The clue was in your username I think :LOL: )

Now then, how do I thank myself for a useful post here? :mrgreen:
 
B

Big Tone

I notice Paragon don't include prices so I guess it's like buying a Ferarri; if you have to ask you can't afford one.

Here's the most useful diagram I have found, mine will be the one on the right and I think it means I've got to make a second hole at the bottom. It also looks like I've got to knock loads of bricks out to accommodate it, unless I can fit it on the top of them? It would be easier to just move house at this rate..

FocusRange.jpg
 
E

expertgasman

I notice Paragon don't include prices so I guess it's like buying a Ferarri; if you have to ask you can't afford one.

Here's the most useful diagram I have found, mine will be the one on the right and I think it means I've got to make a second hole at the bottom. It also looks like I've got to knock loads of bricks out to accommodate it, unless I can fit it on the top of them? It would be easier to just move house at this rate..

FocusRange.jpg

Frankly, Tone, fitting fires is not a DIY job, but I thought your maye would do it FOC. You will need a hearth of some sort, unless you go for the 4 sided trim.

You really need to speak to a "proper" fireplace shop, and they will guide you.

We charge, I think, about £700 for the Focus RS , (supply only) but it comes with a 2yr P&L and a further 3 years parts warranty, subject to an annual service.

They are not actually (strictly speaking) balanced, but room sealed, and the outer cover normally covers any old holes nicely. With carefull cutting of the inner leaf, it is about a half days work. But I think I would scare you with our fixing charges!

There are also Valor balanced fires, probably a bit cheaper, but the inset ones aren't as well built, but tje outset ones are OK, but clumpy
 
B

Big Tone

Firstly, a sincere thanks to you expertgasman. I am somewhat frustrated at doing what, to me, seems like a simple job and finding out the facts and regulations of it all. I don’t mean to sound disparaging of a great profession but it’s not rocket science and I should be able to do this well and far cheaper than hiring a professional.

Frankly, Tone, fitting fires is not a DIY job, but I thought your mate would do it FOC. You will need a hearth of some sort, unless you go for the 4 sided trim.
He offered to do it but I prefer to do the work myself. Call it a sense of pride or ownership of ‘my baby’ if you like; I don’t know. But that’s just me. It’s my house and if I had a wife but someone else could service her better than me I still wouldn’t want some professional Chippendale to take my place, so to speak.

I can build or buy a hearth and I think I’ve even seen ones on Freecycle in the past, so that’s not a biggy to me.

We charge, I think, about £700 for the Focus RS , (supply only) but it comes with a 2yr P&L and a further 3 years parts warranty, subject to an annual service.

They are not actually (strictly speaking) balanced, but room sealed, and the outer cover normally covers any old holes nicely. With careful cutting of the inner leaf, it is about a half days work. But I think I would scare you with our fixing charges!
I’m sure you would, which is why we’re here on DIYnot eh? ;)

So here’s the deal, as I see it: I do all the donkey work and then, afterwards, get a qualified person to check and certify that a lunatic didn’t carry out the work. That saves me money, time and worry. (And in-keeping with the DIY theme). I can do all the work and do it to a high standard so long as I don’t blow myself up. (Have fitted a gas fire before from start to finish)

To put it a different way, I passed my 17th Electrical earlier this year and Part P, which aged me ten years, (long story). What I didn’t get was the Inspection and Testing part, I’ve got that to look forward to in the new year. But pretty much anyone can do this and get it certified by a professional afterwards so I don’t see this as being that different. I can knock bricks out, build and plumb it in, I know what tape to use for gas, I can take a spur from the mains if necessary and Viola! If I have got to pay more than about £350 it aint never gunna happen unless I get more income from electrical work.

I’ll take a picky and post a before and after later; probably much later since it’s coming up to Kiss Moose and I’ve got to get my sis some more shoes or a gift voucher for TK Max...
 
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If you are arrogant enough to think you are competent to fit it yourself especially connecting the gas supply,then you`re a f**king idiot and deserve whatever happens.
 
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So here’s the deal, as I see it: I do all the donkey work and then, afterwards, get a qualified person to check and certify that a lunatic didn’t carry out the work. That saves me money, time and worry. (And in-keeping with the DIY theme).

The qualified person will be a member of a competency scheme.

In the case of gas that means Gas Safe Reg'd only. All gas work has to be reported under gas work notification (GWN) which is then forwarded to LABC which serves as self certification for building control purposes as well as satisfying GWN.

The operative part of these competency schemes is the word 'SELF', as in it's not for certifying the work of others, for which no scheme exists. Your 'qualified person' will have to be prepared to lie that the install was theirs for this to happen, which is illegal.

For non-gas work eg. oil or SF where qualified persons can commission other peoples work, this still does not mean it's certified, that has to be done separately by the fitter with LABC.

Again they're all 'SELF' Certification Schemes.
 

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