Getting sign off on DIY :)

[ClockPie]

I know this is a DIY forum, and I love DIY and learning along the way, not to mention the excuses for new tools But, I also try and do things properly, and with electrics, I will get them signed off.

Just curious, how much DIY electricians are happy with if they have to put their name to any part-p or minor works certification?

For instance and simplicity, assume adding sockets to an existing ring in a (non-bathrooom!) room

- Sockets installed correctly in permitted locations
- Cables chased in safe zones and in conduit
- Sockets wired to cables
- Correct size/spec wires

If the final connection to "live" ring are untouched, so electrician can test new cables in isolation, can see the cable runs visibly, and can then make the connection to the existing ring (from existing sockets) - it that usually OK?

Or do electricians insist on running the cables and connecting sockets themselves?

(Just seeing before I speak to local electricians - as if all say you they want to install faceplates, then so be it, but if some are happy with that being done, then I can ask around till I find someone who will! And I know they can probably do it quicker/cheaper, but you don't get the DIY pride effect if that's the case!)

 

[EFLImpudence]

Just curious, how much DIY electricians are happy with if they have to put their name to any part-p or minor works certification?

None.
If you do the work you can issue the certificates.

If it is notifiable work you must inform the Building Control before you start and find out if they deem you competent to do it.

 

[flameport]

signed off.

Depends what you mean by that.

For all electrical work, if you want it inspected, tested and a certificate issued with the results, then any electrician can do that. So can the person installing it if they are capable of doing so.

For the tiny number of things which are notifiable, then there are 2 options - notify building control and pay their fee before any work starts, or use an electrician who is a member of a notification scheme. Inspection and testing is still required.

 

[ClockPie]

Work I want to do isn't notifiable AFAIK - I jut want to add sockets to ring dedicated to kitchen.

(I also want to replace the cooker feed wire from CU to switch and from switch to outlet, but for that its a short-straight run and happy for electrician to do all of that - its a simple run and I'll just chase and conduit and leave the cable and termination on socket, and WILL NOT touch consumer unit)

And the only testing I can/will do is to ensure full continuity around the ring, and no shorts between any of the wires. That's all I'm able to do - so any other tests that are needed I will want done by in a certified manner.

So just really trying to see if electricians are usually happy to test cabling and sockets installed by someone else, or not.

edit: by signed off, I simply mean have whatever I needed to be legitimate, whether that's a certificate, letter, or just test results

 

[EFLImpudence]

Then, for notifiable work, you need one who will supervise you throughout.

For non-notifiable work, testing after you have done it may be sufficient for you - as you may not get an installation certificate, but a condition report.

You can always get some new tools and learn to test it yourself.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You can always get some new tools and learn to test it yourself.

 

[ericmark]

The only person who can sign the minor works or installation certificate is the person doing the work. However any electrician should be able to issue an electrical installation condition report.

Now to make out a minor works or installation certificate enquiry is a valid method of getting the readings, so there is no reason why a DIY'er should not get a EICR then copy the reading onto a minor works or installation certificate. That means he is signing for the design and installation, then where it asks for the serial number of the meters used you put in the serial number of the EICR with a note saying what you have done, and it would be good if both certificates were kept together.

However where this falls down, is you are signing that you have the skill, and you also have no insurance should you make an error. As to what a court would say if you do make an error is another thing. The problem as always is if you make an error the fact you have made an error points to you not having the skill required, same of course for an electrician, but with the latter he can show some qualifications which would point to it being an accident rather than lack of skill.

As to the LABC I have watched a few builders from hell or what ever the programs are called, and my thoughts are hang on you have paid the LABC a lot of money to oversee the work, where were they when this sub-standard work was done. If it was the social services and baby X died then not only would the person who killed the baby be in court but also the social services would have to show how they did all they could to prevent it. However with LABC they seem to take the money, but do nothing for it. In Ruthin the LABC planning department allowed an estate of houses to be built on condition the ground floor was a set height so if a culvert blocked water would flow over a road before it flooded the houses. The builder got it wrong and built them too low, and the LABC inspector missed the error so many homes were flooded. One would have expected the inspector to be sacked and the council and builder held equally responsible for the error. However all seemed to be laid at the builders door.

It seems the LABC charges are simply regarded as a tax, and the completion certificate is not worth the paper it is written on.

So if you consider a poor installation which causes injury or death, then you have the house insurance and company who did the work insurance which can pay out. If the work is found to be sub-standard the house insurance can refuse to pay out. If the work is sub-standard then the courts can and have issued custodial sentences out, and have fined the person doing the work, so even if the companies insurance pays out, the responsible person has to pay any fines. In the main with owner occupier courts are less likely to hand out heavy fines, but if it is rented, then fines are often in the 1000's of pounds.

So even if you can in theory issue your own minor works or installation certificate, the question is do you want to? The bit of paper does not make it any safer all it does is show who did the work and who to point the finger at if it all goes wrong. For the electrician the paper work is a double edged sword, although it can show he was responsible it can also show by the test results that it was OK when he did the work, and the fault was introduced latter. That does not really work for the owner occupier DIY person in the same way, he got the results from some one else, and the most likely person to have worked on the system after the tests were completed is him.

So even if in theory you can get an EICR done and copy the results onto a minor works or installation certificate why bother? May as well just keep the EICR and not bother making out the minor works or installation certificate. In the main the filling in of the minor works or installation certificate serves as a reminder as to what to test. For some one unable to do their own inspection and testing so they are just copying readings, then it is unlikely to show them any errors.

 

[JohnW2]

So even if you can in theory issue your own minor works or installation certificate, the question is do you want to? ... So even if in theory you can get an EICR done and copy the results onto a minor works or installation certificate why bother? May as well just keep the EICR and not bother making out the minor works or installation certificate.

Therse discussions are all very well, but I very seriously doubt that a significant number of 'ordinary DIYers' ever complete EICs or MWCs for non-notifiable work. To undertake minor DIY work and then pay for an EICR so that one could copy test results onto an MWC would seem particularly daft.

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

The work you plan to do isn't notifiable, even replacing the cooker cable, as it's not a new circuit.
As suggested above, I also found it cheaper to buy the equipment, and learn to use it myself.
Calibration of the ir/resistance tester is quite easy to do yourself with a few known length of t&e (eg 50m roll of 1mm²) and a few high value resistors.
Calibration of the live testers is a little harder.

 

[John D v2.0]

So even if you can in theory issue your own minor works or installation certificate, the question is do you want to? The bit of paper does not make it any safer (....)

In the main the filling in of the minor works or installation certificate serves as a reminder as to what to test..

When I saw your first quote above, I was going to write your second quote, but you beat me to it! I'd say your second comment applies even more to diy.

 

[ericmark]

These discussions are all very well, but I very seriously doubt that a significant number of 'ordinary DIYers' ever complete EICs or MWCs for non-notifiable work. To undertake minor DIY work and then pay for an EICR so that one could copy test results onto an MWC would seem particularly daft.

Kind Regards, John

When I saw your first quote above, I was going to write your second quote, but you beat me to it! I'd say your second comment applies even more to diy.

I have considered many times of how far the DIY guy should go with inspection and testing, to me the Martindale EZ150

is a good compromise. At 1.5Ω lowest reading it is not really good enough, but next tester is 4 times the price, we may get a DIY guy to pay £50 for a tester, but £200 is stretching it.

 

[JohnW2]

I have considered many times of how far the DIY guy should go with inspection and testing, to me the Martindale EZ150 is a good compromise.

Maybe, and one can try to promote that idea (as you do), although you'll probably get some criticism from people who feel that nothing but 'proper testing' is adequate.

However, the fact is that how far DIYers "should go with I &T" and how far the great majority of them do (or ever will) "go" are (one might say 'unfortunately') two totally different issues. There are obviously a few exceptions (not the least in this forum) but the great majority of 'electrical DIYers' will be people who, probably only once every few years, may replace a light switch, add a socket to a circuit or somesuch.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

But they'll happily pay that, or more, to get more comfy chairs to use for a couple of hours in an aeroplane.

 

[John D v2.0]

I don't see how people choose to spend money on planes has any relevance to this?

And Eric mark I didn't know about that tester, I think even testing with a continuity tester could in my mind's estimate get you 80% of the way there in terms of diy errors of new wiring or accessories. However the knowledge needed would be higher. But I think 90% of diy work wouldn't income anything but functional testing

My actual point was that checklists actually improve safety immensely. Since planes have been brought up to this topic, a pilot rarely makes any decisions not from a checklist. They have memory checklists and paper/electronic checklists, and they even follow them if an engine fails or there is a loss of steering control.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I don't see how people choose to spend money on planes has any relevance to this?

It was a reply to Eric re reluctance to spend a few £'00 on equipment.