This is my first post, so please excuse any dumb questions I might ask. I need to talk with somebody who designs and installs heating systems which use the Gledhill Torrent range of thermal stores. Is there anybody out there that could help?
Gledhill Torrent sol T210 System design issue
- Thread starter Pittlequick
- Start date
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Go on, give us a try. Ask away. There are many guys on here who will help.
OK 45yearsgasman, here we go.
I have a second home in Northumberland which has recently had a new central heating system installed. The system it replaced was a cylinder for hot water with an immersion, an open coal fire with back boiler piped into the immersion and four storage heaters running off Economy 7. My criteria for a replacement system were:
More efficient than the old system
Less expensive to run
Better control of heating throughout the bungalow
Frost protection while there's nobody at the property
I wanted a multifuel stove and liked the idea that when it's on it heats water, thus saving on electricity.
There is no natural gas in the area. I had several quotes, mostly for oil or LPG combi systems, but decided on the following system which seemed to tick all the boxes and more.
Gledhill Torrent T210 Sol Thermal Store
Araaw Stratford 12HE multifuel boiler stove
Rads in all rooms
We had a discussion about maybe adding solar at some point in the future, but certainly not straight away because of budget restrictions. The heating engineer said that he would get the solar ready model which had an optional connection for solar if I decided to do that in the future.
Following some initial teething problems, the system now works very well when the stove is on - there's plenty of hot water and the rads work fine, it's all nice and cosy.
The problem is that the solar model has only one 3kw immersion which is located just over half way up the thermal store. It is the only way of heating the thermal store if there is nobody at the property, or during the summer when no fire is needed, and in the literature it says that the immersion is a back up or emergency heat source. Not suprisingly, Gledhill cannot guarantee that the thermal store will guarantee against frost protection. In our initial discussions the heating engineer had told me that there would be two immersions and by using the Economy 7 to heat from the lower section of the thermal store, this would minimise costs and keep it fully charged with hot water so that there would always be hot water on demand.
My other main concern is that it takes so long to heat the water from cold; the heating engineer said that it would take an hour and a half to heat enough water for a bath and three hours to fully charge the tank with hot water.
I tried this by switching on the immersion at midnight and leaving it on all night to take advantage of Economy 7. It had been on for eight and a half hours. I deliberately didn't use any hot water that day until I ran the bath at 8.00pm and was devastated to find that the water was only lukewarm. I suspect that the water in the top part of the tank had heated up to 65 degrees then switched off and during the day the heated water had mixed with the cold water? I don't see how that single 3kw immersion could ever charge the thermal store fully because it would always cut out when the thermostat reached the set temperature, which I believe is 65 degrees?
The heating engineer will not acknowledge that there is a problem and seems to be refusing to acknowledge my e-mails. I am not a plumber or heating engineer but I have now done a lot of asking around and reading up about this system. I feel that there needs to be a primary heating source added to the system to ensure frost protection and a faster response time for charging the thermal store with hot water. With the benefit of hindsight I would not have agreed to this system, (particulary the solar model which does not fit my needs), but since it is now in and fully paid for I need some insightful guidance as to what to do next. I need to get something sorted ready for the onset of the colder weather.
Any solutions, suggestions or observations would be greatly appreciated.
I have a second home in Northumberland which has recently had a new central heating system installed. The system it replaced was a cylinder for hot water with an immersion, an open coal fire with back boiler piped into the immersion and four storage heaters running off Economy 7. My criteria for a replacement system were:
More efficient than the old system
Less expensive to run
Better control of heating throughout the bungalow
Frost protection while there's nobody at the property
I wanted a multifuel stove and liked the idea that when it's on it heats water, thus saving on electricity.
There is no natural gas in the area. I had several quotes, mostly for oil or LPG combi systems, but decided on the following system which seemed to tick all the boxes and more.
Gledhill Torrent T210 Sol Thermal Store
Araaw Stratford 12HE multifuel boiler stove
Rads in all rooms
We had a discussion about maybe adding solar at some point in the future, but certainly not straight away because of budget restrictions. The heating engineer said that he would get the solar ready model which had an optional connection for solar if I decided to do that in the future.
Following some initial teething problems, the system now works very well when the stove is on - there's plenty of hot water and the rads work fine, it's all nice and cosy.
The problem is that the solar model has only one 3kw immersion which is located just over half way up the thermal store. It is the only way of heating the thermal store if there is nobody at the property, or during the summer when no fire is needed, and in the literature it says that the immersion is a back up or emergency heat source. Not suprisingly, Gledhill cannot guarantee that the thermal store will guarantee against frost protection. In our initial discussions the heating engineer had told me that there would be two immersions and by using the Economy 7 to heat from the lower section of the thermal store, this would minimise costs and keep it fully charged with hot water so that there would always be hot water on demand.
My other main concern is that it takes so long to heat the water from cold; the heating engineer said that it would take an hour and a half to heat enough water for a bath and three hours to fully charge the tank with hot water.
I tried this by switching on the immersion at midnight and leaving it on all night to take advantage of Economy 7. It had been on for eight and a half hours. I deliberately didn't use any hot water that day until I ran the bath at 8.00pm and was devastated to find that the water was only lukewarm. I suspect that the water in the top part of the tank had heated up to 65 degrees then switched off and during the day the heated water had mixed with the cold water? I don't see how that single 3kw immersion could ever charge the thermal store fully because it would always cut out when the thermostat reached the set temperature, which I believe is 65 degrees?
The heating engineer will not acknowledge that there is a problem and seems to be refusing to acknowledge my e-mails. I am not a plumber or heating engineer but I have now done a lot of asking around and reading up about this system. I feel that there needs to be a primary heating source added to the system to ensure frost protection and a faster response time for charging the thermal store with hot water. With the benefit of hindsight I would not have agreed to this system, (particulary the solar model which does not fit my needs), but since it is now in and fully paid for I need some insightful guidance as to what to do next. I need to get something sorted ready for the onset of the colder weather.
Any solutions, suggestions or observations would be greatly appreciated.
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are the rads heated off the store as well as the water?
if the immersion is only half way up the store it will only be heating the top half....which will take 3 or 4 hours with no draw off.
this will never surfice and as you found out was only intended as a back up.
I'm in the bath so can't check the torrents design, but one solution would be to hook the solar coil up to a 6kw amptec electric boiler and use that to heat the store.
running costs will not be too good though but that is the nature of electric only heating.
if the immersion is only half way up the store it will only be heating the top half....which will take 3 or 4 hours with no draw off.
this will never surfice and as you found out was only intended as a back up.
I'm in the bath so can't check the torrents design, but one solution would be to hook the solar coil up to a 6kw amptec electric boiler and use that to heat the store.
running costs will not be too good though but that is the nature of electric only heating.
p.s. on the face of it ypur installer sounds like a right knob jockey....persue him.
letters, recorded delivery. perhaps even small claims? i would seek advise.
letters, recorded delivery. perhaps even small claims? i would seek advise.
just checked the destructions and there are enough tappings to...
run heating off the store.
run the solid fule boiler
connect an electric boiler sized to meet hot water and heating needs - subject to electric supply limitations.
AND
retrofit solar later.
you seem to have discovered one weekness of large thermal stores.... stratification, or rather - destratification.
run heating off the store.
run the solid fule boiler
connect an electric boiler sized to meet hot water and heating needs - subject to electric supply limitations.
AND
retrofit solar later.
you seem to have discovered one weekness of large thermal stores.... stratification, or rather - destratification.
Thanks Dan
Yes, both the rads and hot water run off the thermal store, as I think you've now discovered.
I'm pleased you suggested the 6kw amptec electric boiler. That had already come up in conversation with a plumber friend who has no experience of thermal stores. In addition to the existing 3kw immersion I think it would provide enough energy to run the heating system if needed - the installer told me it needed 7.5 kw for the heating. However, as you say it's an expensive way of running the system which leads to my next question.
If I had a 6kw amptec electric boiler fitted to the solar coil, which would be the best immersion, (the existing 3kw or the added 6kw amptec), to run off Economy 7? Another way of putting the question is, what would be the most economical way of using the immersions with timers/ Economy 7 ? In my area the Economy 7 is from 12.30am to 7.30am.
I would much rather the installer rectified the situation without my needing to pursue things but I am very close to formally seeking advice as you suggest.
Having talked with some solar panel installers it is clear that there is no guarantee that there would be enough energy created to run the frost protection during the winter anyway, so it seems to me that the T210 Sol model was never going to be the right choice for my property.
Yes, both the rads and hot water run off the thermal store, as I think you've now discovered.
I'm pleased you suggested the 6kw amptec electric boiler. That had already come up in conversation with a plumber friend who has no experience of thermal stores. In addition to the existing 3kw immersion I think it would provide enough energy to run the heating system if needed - the installer told me it needed 7.5 kw for the heating. However, as you say it's an expensive way of running the system which leads to my next question.
If I had a 6kw amptec electric boiler fitted to the solar coil, which would be the best immersion, (the existing 3kw or the added 6kw amptec), to run off Economy 7? Another way of putting the question is, what would be the most economical way of using the immersions with timers/ Economy 7 ? In my area the Economy 7 is from 12.30am to 7.30am.
I would much rather the installer rectified the situation without my needing to pursue things but I am very close to formally seeking advice as you suggest.
Having talked with some solar panel installers it is clear that there is no guarantee that there would be enough energy created to run the frost protection during the winter anyway, so it seems to me that the T210 Sol model was never going to be the right choice for my property.
Righty oh...
Simple things first.... With a separate electric boiler and a standard heating control setup frost protection can be taken care of easily.
On a similar (no solar, no solid fuel) install we just fitted the biggest Amptech that the property's supply could cope with was 6KW, which was just enough for the heating. So it was on a Y-Plan with the rads off the boiler not the store. The controls were set to heat the store a good 2 hours before the heating was going to be needed in order to provide enough hot water for morning showers etc.
If you need 7,5kW for the heating, then you need to have the 9Kw Amptech. That way there is a little in reserve for the hot water. Using a TPi room stat like the Honeywell CM927 or CM907.
The idea is you heat the whole store up to 70or so degrees via one form or another, and then top up what the heating takes off.
In my install example the heating was a separate circuit and the store was purely for hot water. However, for you, you have the solar and solid fuel to contribute to heating, hence taking the heating direct from the store. There is no need to use the solar connections for now (I was thinking of my own TS which has a dedicated solar coil - different to yours).
With regards your installer... I would be giving him the opportunity to "rectify" with materials paid by you, labour FOC from him... otherwise, a 3rd party will supply and fit with full costs claimed from him.... but again SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVISE.
Simple things first.... With a separate electric boiler and a standard heating control setup frost protection can be taken care of easily.
On a similar (no solar, no solid fuel) install we just fitted the biggest Amptech that the property's supply could cope with was 6KW, which was just enough for the heating. So it was on a Y-Plan with the rads off the boiler not the store. The controls were set to heat the store a good 2 hours before the heating was going to be needed in order to provide enough hot water for morning showers etc.
If you need 7,5kW for the heating, then you need to have the 9Kw Amptech. That way there is a little in reserve for the hot water. Using a TPi room stat like the Honeywell CM927 or CM907.
The idea is you heat the whole store up to 70or so degrees via one form or another, and then top up what the heating takes off.
In my install example the heating was a separate circuit and the store was purely for hot water. However, for you, you have the solar and solid fuel to contribute to heating, hence taking the heating direct from the store. There is no need to use the solar connections for now (I was thinking of my own TS which has a dedicated solar coil - different to yours).
With regards your installer... I would be giving him the opportunity to "rectify" with materials paid by you, labour FOC from him... otherwise, a 3rd party will supply and fit with full costs claimed from him.... but again SEEK PROFESSIONAL ADVISE.
I'm a bit confused here. How does a Y plan work?
Would I be correct in thinking that it means that the stand alone electric boiler could be set up either to feed the heating direct or to heat the water in the store, by using a time switch? ie. say, charging the thermal store between 12.30 and 7.30am to keep it topped up then switch to meeting the demands of the heating in case of frost protection?
The way the system was explained to me at the outset was that by keeping the thermal store fully charged with hot water at all times, particularly when I'm not at the property in the winter, there would aways be enough water to protect against frost and when I returned to the property there would be instant hot water and heating from the store. I have been advised that the frost protection side of things would take a minimum of 3.5 kw but that's on the assumption that the thermal store is kept fully charged. There is a programmable stat in the hallway and all the rads except the towel rad have trv s.
Would I be correct in thinking that it means that the stand alone electric boiler could be set up either to feed the heating direct or to heat the water in the store, by using a time switch? ie. say, charging the thermal store between 12.30 and 7.30am to keep it topped up then switch to meeting the demands of the heating in case of frost protection?
The way the system was explained to me at the outset was that by keeping the thermal store fully charged with hot water at all times, particularly when I'm not at the property in the winter, there would aways be enough water to protect against frost and when I returned to the property there would be instant hot water and heating from the store. I have been advised that the frost protection side of things would take a minimum of 3.5 kw but that's on the assumption that the thermal store is kept fully charged. There is a programmable stat in the hallway and all the rads except the towel rad have trv s.
All you'd need to do is wire the immersion through a suitable stat in parallel. The heating thermostat will handle the rest.
A y-plan is a means of directing the heat from the electric boiler to one system or the other and will require plumbing the heating separately from the store.
It will make the control you are after marginally easier to achieve, but is not a significant improvement.
You do not need to keep the store at high temperatures when the place is not habited. In fact that is just daft.
A y-plan is a means of directing the heat from the electric boiler to one system or the other and will require plumbing the heating separately from the store.
It will make the control you are after marginally easier to achieve, but is not a significant improvement.
You do not need to keep the store at high temperatures when the place is not habited. In fact that is just daft.
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