Harmony

[Softus]

Please change the "we" to "I" as you don’t speak for all of us.

I wasn't speaking for all of us, so I see no need to change anything.

Some of us are more interested in the post than your political correctness.

I don't align with your pigeonholing of my point as political correctness. If you have a problem with me pointing out what was a derogatory comment, your best course of action is to ask people not to make derogatory comments, instead of asking people not to object to them.

And seeing as you jumped in, what’s your view on the subject of harmonisation?

Despite that fact that I didn't jump in, any more than any other poster ever jumps in, and despite the questionable sincerity of your request, my view is that harmonisation is a microcosm of the current congress towards less confusion and less risk.

It never made any sense to me to have harmonised insulation colours for flex but not for structural cable. It's a pity that the changes for three-phase are quite radical, but there always was scope for f*ck ups with three phase anyway; only the other day I came across an installation with two of the phases in red, and the other phase, and the neutral, in black.

The declared goal of harmonisation was, and is, conformity; since that goal is being achieved, the only question is whether or not the action being taken is, on balance, the best compromise.

IMHO, it is.

 

[Pensdown]

Having read and taken on board some of your posts in the plumbing forum believe it or not I am interested in your opinions. However, IMO at times, rather than debate a post you do tend to go off at a tangent and end up just nit picking some posters. Some times its called for (and very funny), other times it’s just bloody boring for people like me who read (to learn) more than post.

Now we’ve both made our point its back to the post and I agree with you

My only concern is that as far as I’m aware, the main reason the colours were adopted as the EU harmonised colours was because there were more countries using brown-blue than red-black. This in my opinion is not how technical decisions of this magnitude should be made.

If this philosophy is going to be used for further harmonisation within the electrical industry then IMO things will be going backwards.

I just hope that any further harmonisation is done in a more technical way and our high standards are not compromised in the process.

 

[lizzieg]

OK NOW...get behind your team for the world cup.

yo kier didn't know that Pitcairn was in Europe or in't world cup for that matter!!!.........

 

[ebee]

Keep the ring final.
Keep[ sockets out of bathrooms.
Get the old colours back.
Oh and who pinched me ten volts at home?

 

[dingbat]

Oh and who pinched me ten volts at home?

If you look carefully you'll find your volts are still all there!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

european harmonisation.

That's right. But please, everyone, note that it wasn't just the UK that had to make changes.

while allowing electricians to more easilly move arround the EU is certainly considered an advantage by eurocrats, afaict the main reason for the colors was to bring down barriers to trade in electrical goods.

But electrical goods and installation cables are not the same thing..

Fixed wiring was meant to change soon after flex (having different colors for flex and fixed wiring isn't the most sensible of ideas) but we brits dragged our heels for several decades before finally being forced to comply.

I'm not sure that that is true.

No really it is so that all of europe use the same standard colours so that the trades can work in each others countries, and so that imported / exported appliances / equipment all use the same colours.

What have appliances got to do with fixed installation cables?

Also we all live in the united states of europe so we have to do what brussels say.

Do I detect a hint of Europhobia here?

It's nothing to do with the EU - this is a CENELEC issue, although there are aspects of it which are related to EU membership, such as national standards (BS) having to be replaced with EN ones.

I think the cable manufactures were also pushing for change because they were producing both UK and EU coloured cable. It’s obviously more cost effective for them to produce cables with the same colour range but somehow I don’t expect this will be reflected in the price.

Given that nobody else uses flat twin & earth, or SWA, this argument is a bit flaky....

I’m not a lover of the new colours but they are better than some of the European multi core flexible cables which just have numbered black cores.

Harmonisation should affect them, too....

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So how long before we chuck the old ring final out the window then?

You can do that now, if you wish.

Ring finals are not compulsory, and everybody is free to use a bit of common sense and install radials instead.

 

[Pensdown]

BAS. Good to have you back

 

[plugwash]

No really it is so that all of europe use the same standard colours so that the trades can work in each others countries, and so that imported / exported appliances / equipment all use the same colours.

What have appliances got to do with fixed installation cables?

a lot unless you think having different codes for fixed and flexible wiring that (in the case of 3 phase portable equipment) use the same color for different things is a sane idea.

and what about stuff like the neutral links on RCBOs and other cases where fixed equipment is sold with wiring already attatched/installed?

 

[Softus]

No really it is so that all of europe use the same standard colours so that the trades can work in each others countries, and so that imported / exported appliances / equipment all use the same colours.

What have appliances got to do with fixed installation cables?

At first glance, they share the ability for a single phase domestic electricity supply to pass through them.

In general, the colour coding of conductor insulation seems to be A Good Idea™. If this is true, then a schema that is common to both structural cable and appliance flex would seem to be An Even Better Thing, or perhaps just a less potentially bad thing.

I think the cable manufactures were also pushing for change because they were producing both UK and EU coloured cable. It’s obviously more cost effective for them to produce cables with the same colour range but somehow I don’t expect this will be reflected in the price.

Given that nobody else uses flat twin & earth, or SWA, this argument is a bit flaky....

Yeah but, no, but yeah, but, no, but it is possible that the conductors within flat sheathed T&E are the same as those withiin other sheaths? And single core cabling (i.e. non-sheathed) too?

 

[plugwash]

out of interest what do the europeans use for underground work?

and conduit singles are afaict the same accross europe.

 

[Softus]

Now we’ve both made our point its back to the post and I agree with you

Cool.

My only concern is that as far as I’m aware, the main reason the colours were adopted as the EU harmonised colours was because there were more countries using brown-blue than red-black. This in my opinion is not how technical decisions of this magnitude should be made.

I'm interested to know more about your point here. I can see how the standard for colour coding changes risk, and therefore there are safety issues, but I'm not getting what you mean by a technical decision.

 

[ebee]

Remember those "Beef Mountains" ?
Well if each household has 10 less volts and each factory has 15 less volts then where have they gone?
Yes I bet it`s an EU voltage mountain and we`re selling our surplus volts to the Russians in exchange for some gas

 

[Softus]

Mine's still on 240V, so I daresay everyone else's is too.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The last time I measured mine it was 247.

But I don't like to boast.