Heat bank & boiler connections

[DeltaT2]

Apologies - your post got in front of mine -that smiley was for puller.

LMFAO!!!!.................

Oh Danny boy, the pipes the pipes are sludged up!!
In all the Estates
From site to site & all along the Clyde.
But we'll be here the next day & tomorrow
To fit our UVCs & they will always bide.

 

[gaswizzard]

Think of the thermal store as being one big hydraulic seperator.

Hydraulic seperators (LLH) are fitted to provide three functions..

1) Hydraulic seperation

2) Air removal

3) Dirt removal... only problem here is a TS doesn't allow for this to be carried out , unlike a LLH etc.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Does on mine. Nice big immersion boss near the bottom, and a nice full flow dump valve too.

Shame there ain't much sludge to benefit from them though

 

[Norcon]

Fit a store with a dome at the bottom then no sludge collection.
It can collect in the rads instead and the store is off the hook.

 

[JonasX]

The very principle of design makes for these thermal stores to be a sludge bucket , think of them as one BIG LLH.

If the CH loop is isolated from the stored water via a coil it cannot sludge up. Anyone who knows anything about the design of them would know that.

 

[JonasX]

This is why I find this thread laughable

I find it amazing that so many so-called professional can't figure out how a thermal store works. It is clear they do not know who the sludge occurs and how it can be prevented from occurring.

 

[JonasX]

many installers, including my good self,

You are a cowboy. You do not even know your own trade.

 

[JonasX]

http://www.jonrb.com/emoticons/whatever3.gif

With respect , if you knew anything about 'proper' system design you may think twice.

The very nature of these units makes them sludge collectors.

It is clear you have not a clue how thermal stores are designed and the many different variations

 

[JonasX]

Apologies - your post got in front of mine -that smiley was for puller.

LMFAO!!!!.................

Oh Danny boy, the pipes the pipes are sludged up!!
In all the Estates
From site to site & all along the Clyde.
But we'll be here the next day & tomorrow
To fit our UVCs & they will always bide.

What tunes goes with this song? Can I tap my foot to it?

 

[JonasX]

Think of the thermal store as being one big hydraulic seperator.

No.

a) It is a neutral point allowing all functions to operate independently of each other.

b) Each independent function can be tuned to operate to maximum efficiency.

c) The low pressure versions even allow high pressure mains hot water.

You need to do some reading. Read back on the recent threads on thermal stores for a starter.

 

[Onetap]

Onetap arguing they cause Legionellas... Unbelievable.

And to say a TS is more prone to forming dangerous levels of Legionella's disease than any other combi boiler - or traditional gravity fed cylinder is frankly pathetic.

You'll have to re-read the thread and find the bit where I said that. I could save you some time by telling you that I did not say it. You seem to be having an argument with me about an opinion I do not hold.

Legionella came up on page 2 in connection with your PHX specification quoting a DHW delivery temperature of 50 degC, which is really, a very strange and incredible thing. 50 degC? Why?

It continued with your statement; "But this is potable water, it is not stored so Mr Legionella can s0d off."

Dangerous levels of legionella are caused by an environment with tepid water and nutrients. Whether that environment is in a water storage system, instantaneous heater, commercial or domestic is irrelevant.

I think mains fed, PHX water heaters (TS & combis) are less likely to support legionella, but no-one credible will quantify how much less likely, nor will they say such systems are immune to legionella because they are not. The requirements of L8 are 60 degC storage, 50 degC at any tap within 60 seconds and that is what I work to; simple.

My previous boiler was a Range Powermax, selected because it had an integral thermal store and it was cheap. The heat distribution was through a 3-port mixing valve with a WC controller. In this case, the thermal store allowed the non-condensing, non-modulating burner to run for a significant time (i.e., to heat the store from say 45 to 80 say, instead of frequently firing from 45 to 55 with a non-TS system). The mixing valve opening was restricted by the return temperature and the boiler suffered none of the problems due to acidic condensation that the Powermax was prone to. There was (and is still) a vented hot water cylinder. The Powermax PHX was only used for a washing machine, because I knew there would otherwise be scale problems.

The Powermax was binned during an extension; it was still working and had never failed during 5 years use. A Vaillant Ecotec system boiler was fitted with Vaillant WC controls. A thermal store would have been pointless.

A thermal store has it's applications. The OP's system is not one of them. I would use a thermal store again, if applicable. I would never install one with an integral F&E tank.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Why even mention it? Few combi's are quoted with 60 degree delivery.

Most state a 35 degree rise.

A totally irrelevant diversion.

The data I gave on the plate was for a perfectly acceptable 45 degree rise.

 

[Onetap]

Why even mention it? Few combi's are quoted with 60 degree delivery.

Most state a 35 degree rise.

A totally irrelevant diversion.

The data I gave on the plate was for a perfectly acceptable 45 degree rise.

It gives the DHW discharge temperature as 50 degC. Whaat is wrong with 50 degC??? This is;

"L. pneumophila is thermotolerant and able to withstand temperatures of 50 °C for several hours."

http://www.who.int/water_sanitation_health/emerging/legionella.pdf

So, I cannot put water at 50 degC into a distribution system, it will be at less than 45 at the outlets. That puts legionella in the water system and that puts me in the slammer. I want 60 degC.

If DHW To = 50 degC is wrong, then so is this.

Inlet temperature : 75 °C 5 °C
Outlet temperature : 30 °C 50 °C
:
Flow rate : 1.938 m³/h 0.5317 kg/s

Plate heat exchanger
Heat load : 100.0 kW
Total heat transfer area : 0.836 m²
Log mean temp.difference : 25 K
Calculated pressure drop : 13.6 kPa 12.7 kPa

The useful DHW flow rate from the PHX is greatly reduced, or the primary flow rate must be increased. If the latter, then the resistance increases in proportion to the square of the flow rate and the power costs of pumping the water through the narrow waterways of the PHX have greatly increased.

50 degC?! Be serious. As I said, those figures have been selected to mislead the unwary.

 

[JonasX]

The Powermax was binned during an extension; it was still working and had never failed during 5 years use. A Vaillant Ecotec system boiler was fitted with Vaillant WC controls. A thermal store would have been pointless.

So, you a thermal store which by your own admission was superb. Then you dumped it and do not know why you dumped it. How logical!

 

[JonasX]

The Powermax was binned during an extension; it was still working and had never failed during 5 years use. A Vaillant Ecotec system boiler was fitted with Vaillant WC controls. A thermal store would have been pointless.

So, you had a thermal store which by your own admission was superb. Then you dumped it and do not know why you dumped it. How logical!