Help for boiler installed without Bypass and without overrun

[Ostell]

My local friendly installer installed a Glow Worm Ultracom boiler some time ago and it's never been quite right, in fact it ended up quite wrong.

This was a boiler replacement and as part of the work he also installed TRVs, which I understand are now required. What I didn't know then was that there should have also been an automatic bypass valve installed. There wasn't. The installation instructions say there should be one but he has ticked the check list to say it was not required. I presume there should be one.

The installation instructions specify that the pump should be wired to a connection within the boiler. It wasn't, it went to an external junction box. I presume that the pump connection inside the boiler provided pump overrun but there is no statement to that effect within the instructions. Could anyone confirm if this boiler connection is pump overrun.

I know it's not a lot of use having overrun without a bypass but just want to check. The continuous entry of air into the system and radiators failing to heat after 18 months because of sludge didn't seem to convince the installer that anything was wrong.

He also managed to give us a gas leak by damaging the manometer connection on the gas meter. A really competent gas safe engineer.

 

[Armo74]

How many motorised valves do you have?
Do all the rads have TRV's?
Why don't you get the installer back?
Was anything else changed during installation?
What makes you think it has not been wired correctly?
The junction box you refer to is the boiler interlock where the valve(s),pump,
and thermostat's should be wired in a certain configuration depending on plan type.

 

[cozzmic]

It a Ultracom what? several boilers with name but is it a system, combi, Hxi?
If combi has a by-pass built into the boiler. If a system it has a by-pass built in if Ultracom 2 but the pump over run could be wired back to the wiring centre. Not the usual way to do it but it could be done easily.

 

[Ostell]

• * 3 Motorised valves
  * All rads now have TRVs bar 2 (in rooms with stats)
  * Installer has been back several times but can't/won't correct. (Back about 20 times for various things)
  * Nothing else changed
  * Yep it's the box where zone valves, time clocks,thermostats etc are brought back to. Definitely no pump overrun, pump stops as soon as no demand, as indicated by the sudden stop of bearing noise (needs 3rd pump in 3 years).
  * Ultracom hxi (not a combi)

 

[cozzmic]

Yup needs the wire from the pump put back to the boiler and an auto by-pass cut in between pump and the motorised valves. Would cause the boiler to overheat and trip out and flash up a fault code.

 

[Ostell]

Yup needs the wire from the pump put back to the boiler and an auto by-pass cut in between pump and the motorised valves. Would cause the boiler to overheat and trip out and flash up a fault code.

That's what I thought but the installer reckons it's all correct. So there is a pump overrun circuit in the boiler?

The fact that it needed a power flush after 18 months then another 12 months after that is not regarded as unusual by the installer, nor is the constant appearance of air in the system.

The boiler does indeed bang and crash and trip out with a fault code (F25).

 

[cozzmic]

There is a terminal to wire the pump to and there must be some other issue if the system needs flushed so soon. I have never had to power flush a system in my 30 plus years in the business but do do chemical flush as per manu instructions on new installs.
Boiling the boiler will not help as if its an open vent it will push steam up the vent and drag cold fresh water back into system which will cause it to corrode up quite quickly.
F25 is circulation fault.

 

[Ostell]

Boiling the boiler will not help as if its an open vent it will push steam up the vent and drag cold fresh water back into system which will cause it to corrode up quite quickly.
F25 is circulation fault.

It is an open vent system. It is also pumping over into the header tank, which is a no no I assume, which can also increase corrosion? I'm assuming that lack of a bypass valve meant the water had nowhere else to go other than over the vent when the TVRs all closed
This guy should be stopped!

The only solution given for the frequent F25 stops was to show me how to reset the boiler!

 

[cozzmic]

Could be a problem with the installation if it is pumping over but would get the over run and by-pass sorted first and look at the pipe work layout to see if there is a problem with that causing the pumping over. It may need a visit by another company to rectify if you don't want the installer back.
A picture of the pipework around the boiler and the pump says a thousand words.

 

[Ostell]

Original system was 25 years old and no real problems until TRVs installed as part of boiler replacement (apart from the boiler starting to die). As I said there were at least 20 visits for assorted problems after new boiler installed.

It's going to be small claims to get the money back after another installer replaced the system. New boiler, new rads, everything replaced because of stress (overheating) and wear (all that abrasive sludge) in the boiler and corrosion of the rads (probable pinhole breakdown).

This installer should be barred.

Thanks for all your very helpful comments and suggestions.

 

[twgas]

Am i missing something?
At 5:25 you started a thread which appeared to be all about getting your poorly installed boiler/system put right, and now you've got a complete new system!
What is this thread really about?

 

[Ostell]

It's about trying to confirm what went wrong. It was only when the other installer inspected the system, originally with a view to fixing, that he said the system had been installed incorrectly. The Benchmark checklist was ticked as "Automatic bypass not required" despite the installation instructions, and other referenced documents, saying it needed to be installed. The pump connection instructions were also not followed. And he signed it.

I've had to do a lot of reading to understand things like Automatic Bypass and pump overrun, which weren't in regular use 30 years ago (5 years I've been trying to get this system working!).

Lots of problems that weren't recognised by the installer. For example within the first weeks air was constantly collecting in the pump. He moved the pump and put in an automatic bleed next to the pump. It got rid of the symptoms but at no time did he try to work out WHY the air kept accumulating. The pump and the automatic vent failed within the first year!

And don't ask about all the zone valves failing within the first year and even the replacements failing after 2 years (in addition to being incorrectly wired).

He didn't query WHY the heating stopped downstairs within 18 month, he just power flushed it (and charged me!). When he was told that the heating downstairs had stopped again some 12 months later I never heard from him again.

His attitude to causing a gas leak was that it sometimes happens, and it had happened before.

He's dangerous.

Sorry to have appeared to be devious but I was trying to get answers without putting words into peoples mouth.

 

[Agile]

I do have to say that I totally disagree with your putting rubbish here which is totally at variance with what is really the case.

We could have given you very good advice if only you had explained the situation at the outset.

In my view you have been conned by the second installer who seems to have totally replaced the system after making you think that you will easily get HIS costs and profit back from the original installer.

I would be very surprised if you get much back at all. I agree the original installer seems to have been pretty useless but in my view you have gone about putting it right in the wrong way.

I don't think that any of the engineers here should give you any further help at all now that we have learnt of your devious ways!

 

[Ostell]

When you're faced with no heating again as the winter approaches you tend to get the work done. The intention was to make the family comfortable again. If I had found this site earlier I may have been fixing it, though I doubt it. The second installer didn't suggest trying to recover the money, it was purely my idea. I don't like being conned out of my savings.

As to replacing the rads and boiler. The rads were 25 years old at the time and a high probability that with the amount of sludge being produced in the system the walls of the rads had been corroded so much that they were thin and liable to pin holes. The boiler was forever banging and crashing, stressing the heat exchanger and not exactly conducive to a long service life. The circulating sludge would also be grinding away at the innards of the heat exchanger, as it had to the bearings of the (2nd) pump.

It is always after the event that you get to hear about how useless the original installer was, various tales about multiple recalls because he didn't get it right first time (or second, or third).

If the first installer couldn't get it right and still believed the installation was good but couldn't resolve the problems what would you do? So far no call backs to the second installer after 10 months compared to the 6 or so with the original.

If you bought a car that kept having to go back to the garage and within a short time didn't work at all and the garage didn't know how to fix it what would you do? Probably get your money back and get another car.

 

[Ostell]

Just to let you know that i won in court. The installer didn't know he needed to install a bypass