Help for boiler installed without Bypass and without overrun
- Thread starter Ostell
- Start date
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That sounds excessive ( if the original cost was normal ) compared with the cost of correcting.
To fit an auto bypass and rewire the pump would be about £120 at average stand alone prices!
I dont see what relevance how long the boiler was used for. It was wrongly fitted and still wrongly fitted five years later!
Tony
To fit an auto bypass and rewire the pump would be about £120 at average stand alone prices!
I dont see what relevance how long the boiler was used for. It was wrongly fitted and still wrongly fitted five years later!
Tony
The law is an ass.
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I agree, easily corrected IF you know it is wrong. The installer didn't know it was wrong, it was only me, as the customer, investigating after hints from others that identified the problems.
He admitted that he had not wired the pump to the boiler because that was not how he did it with the zone valves. He insisted that there was no frost protection with the boiler (using bypass and pump) until showed the section in the installation instructions.
He said I should have paid for an independent report and he would have acted on it. Hello, you're supposed to be the expert.
He didn't associate continuing air in the system (during the first 3 months) and continuing production of sludge with pumping over. He "solved" the problem with an auto air vent, ie got rid of the symptoms without solving the problems.
Put it this way, if you bought a car and it kept failing and the garage could not fix it permanently and eventually the garage walked away from it what would you do?
He admitted that he had not wired the pump to the boiler because that was not how he did it with the zone valves. He insisted that there was no frost protection with the boiler (using bypass and pump) until showed the section in the installation instructions.
He said I should have paid for an independent report and he would have acted on it. Hello, you're supposed to be the expert.
He didn't associate continuing air in the system (during the first 3 months) and continuing production of sludge with pumping over. He "solved" the problem with an auto air vent, ie got rid of the symptoms without solving the problems.
Put it this way, if you bought a car and it kept failing and the garage could not fix it permanently and eventually the garage walked away from it what would you do?
And now for some input from you guys in the trade who have been having a knock at me.
The plumber gave evidence in court that the microswitch on installed Horstmann zone valves kept failing but he replaced them as required. This was not only for me but for several other customers. It further transpired that because the Horstmann instructions showed a connection to the pump this is what he always did, ignoring the pump connection on the boiler.
This meant, of course, that safety items like pump over run and, on some boilers (including mine), frost protection were bypassed. On the frost protection on my boiler it would mean that no water was pumped round and the boiler would eventually turn the heat on. Heat on and no water movement in a condensing boiler could result in a quite spectacular explosive boil.
I deduce that the problems with the zone valves was because they were switching the pump load rather than just signalling heat required to the boiler and letting the boiler do the switching.
Now what would you do about an installer who purposely doesn't use the pump connection on the boiler? This man is dangerous. Which trade body would you report him to, if you would report?
The plumber gave evidence in court that the microswitch on installed Horstmann zone valves kept failing but he replaced them as required. This was not only for me but for several other customers. It further transpired that because the Horstmann instructions showed a connection to the pump this is what he always did, ignoring the pump connection on the boiler.
This meant, of course, that safety items like pump over run and, on some boilers (including mine), frost protection were bypassed. On the frost protection on my boiler it would mean that no water was pumped round and the boiler would eventually turn the heat on. Heat on and no water movement in a condensing boiler could result in a quite spectacular explosive boil.
I deduce that the problems with the zone valves was because they were switching the pump load rather than just signalling heat required to the boiler and letting the boiler do the switching.
Now what would you do about an installer who purposely doesn't use the pump connection on the boiler? This man is dangerous. Which trade body would you report him to, if you would report?
Complete and Utter bollocks.
Yes the original installer was a prat. But so was the court for awarding a disproportionate amount when the system could have been rectified for a couple of hundred quid.
Not quite sure what you want the professionals to say really. Seems to me that you have been rather duplicitous with your dealings.
However, if you would like a pat on the back, please tell us where to send your Blue Peter badge.
Yes I know now that it could have been resolved easily but then I am not the alleged expert.
It should not even have got to court, the installer should have rectified it but he just walked away, probably because he had run out of ideas.
As you say the original installer was a prat so what action would you recommend to stop this prat from inflicting his bad installs on other member of the public? Or do you condone the actions of this prat.
Can I ask you what you would do if something you paid for did not work and the supplier couldn't/wouldn't fix it?
From your b0llocks comment I presume that you are a "qualified" installer and know what you are talking about. Where would you wire the pump? Go work out what happens if the heat is on and there is no water flowing.
Oh, and the installer refuted that there was frost protection built in to the boiler, until he was shown the page in the installation manual.
It should not even have got to court, the installer should have rectified it but he just walked away, probably because he had run out of ideas.
As you say the original installer was a prat so what action would you recommend to stop this prat from inflicting his bad installs on other member of the public? Or do you condone the actions of this prat.
Can I ask you what you would do if something you paid for did not work and the supplier couldn't/wouldn't fix it?
From your b0llocks comment I presume that you are a "qualified" installer and know what you are talking about. Where would you wire the pump? Go work out what happens if the heat is on and there is no water flowing.
Oh, and the installer refuted that there was frost protection built in to the boiler, until he was shown the page in the installation manual.
Nice to see Dan using his training to bring new words to this forum!
The micro switches in the motor valves are capable of taking pump currents. Thats how systems used to be wired before modern boilers evolved.
The Court presumably awarded punitive damages just because he was obviously a prat.
I am amused that you have not named him! Most reading here would be keen to avoid him. Just demonstrates that there is no requirement to have any knowledge to advertise as a plumber!
But has he paid the Court's award?
Tony
The micro switches in the motor valves are capable of taking pump currents. Thats how systems used to be wired before modern boilers evolved.
The Court presumably awarded punitive damages just because he was obviously a prat.
I am amused that you have not named him! Most reading here would be keen to avoid him. Just demonstrates that there is no requirement to have any knowledge to advertise as a plumber!
But has he paid the Court's award?
Tony
I know very well how to wire a system.
Including ones that have lots of pumps.
This one had 10 in total.
I also know full well that microswitches can take the starting current of a pump.
Possibly several.
If I was in your situation, I would have had two or 3 estimates fro remedial works.
You were VERY lucky with your court hearing.
I have been involved in legal wranglings where I had to produce a report into installation defects and price the remedial works. For far more serious problems than you were faced with and tens of thousands of pounds of work. Still - we only remedied the ACTUAL problems and didn't take the pish by doing more than was required.
Thanks Agile,
The microswitches were rated at 3A and the pump would probably have taken .8A - 1A when running but the inrush current when switched on would be several times that and the inductive spark when switching off probably destroyed the contacts. As you say the old way was to switch the pump from the zone valves but he is continuing the old ways, which is a concern. I accept that the microswitches could be a defective batch (or more probably a manufacturers cost reduction exercise since they would normally not have to carry high currents any more), no problems with that, but if he had wired the pump to the boiler as the instructions requested then the only current through the switches would have been a minimal, non inductive, current to the circuit board, in the mA range.
The judge commented that the award could have been higher if I had produced an expert witness statement saying that the boiler could have been damaged by the banging and cracking of the explosive boiling and the radiators excessively corroded by the constant supply of oxygen by the pump over.
I haven't named him yet as I haven't got a full copy of the judgement. I will be making it know locally that he is not the most competent and may even publish on the internet. The other engineers that I have talked to were not impressed with him when they've met him at various courses. He didn't come over too bright in court either, the judge was not impressed with his waffling and non knowledge of his subject.
His wife, company secretary, complained that her solicitor had given her wrong advice about her defence and wanted permission to appeal the judgement. The judge did suggest that it would perhaps not be a good idea and asked if she still wanted to ask his permission to appeal.
Money due in 27 days now. The judgement is on the courts list as being due and if not paid then that will be a CCJ recorded against him. Even though he is operating through a limited company if he tries to get rid of the cash before payment then I will chase him for the cash as a director who has behaved badly. Last years accounts showed £20,000 cash in hand and in the bank.
The microswitches were rated at 3A and the pump would probably have taken .8A - 1A when running but the inrush current when switched on would be several times that and the inductive spark when switching off probably destroyed the contacts. As you say the old way was to switch the pump from the zone valves but he is continuing the old ways, which is a concern. I accept that the microswitches could be a defective batch (or more probably a manufacturers cost reduction exercise since they would normally not have to carry high currents any more), no problems with that, but if he had wired the pump to the boiler as the instructions requested then the only current through the switches would have been a minimal, non inductive, current to the circuit board, in the mA range.
The judge commented that the award could have been higher if I had produced an expert witness statement saying that the boiler could have been damaged by the banging and cracking of the explosive boiling and the radiators excessively corroded by the constant supply of oxygen by the pump over.
I haven't named him yet as I haven't got a full copy of the judgement. I will be making it know locally that he is not the most competent and may even publish on the internet. The other engineers that I have talked to were not impressed with him when they've met him at various courses. He didn't come over too bright in court either, the judge was not impressed with his waffling and non knowledge of his subject.
His wife, company secretary, complained that her solicitor had given her wrong advice about her defence and wanted permission to appeal the judgement. The judge did suggest that it would perhaps not be a good idea and asked if she still wanted to ask his permission to appeal.
Money due in 27 days now. The judgement is on the courts list as being due and if not paid then that will be a CCJ recorded against him. Even though he is operating through a limited company if he tries to get rid of the cash before payment then I will chase him for the cash as a director who has behaved badly. Last years accounts showed £20,000 cash in hand and in the bank.
But you still didn't answer the questions.
Not lucky with court, just an open and shut case and no defence other than it was a long time and he was a professional engineer(!) and fully qualified.
Not much would happen tbh, if the boiler fired up without the pump running the boiler would quickly shut off again as the temp sensors would throw a fault up.
The sensors seem to be thermistors on the input and output pipes therefore no flow = no detection. Will eventually detect but too late. If what you say is true then why did my boiler bang and crash. Explosive boiling due to lack of flow I suspect. The very thing that pump over run is meant to control.
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