Help please. New uPVC window frame is not straight

[fluff29]

Burnerman/****ycranky - thanks for your comments.

****ycranky

I will try and use your termonology to explain. You are correct. The window is beaded on the outside. The fitter did remove the silicone and renew it. I thought that the window was beaded on the inside. I cannot understand how he now has chip marks (around 4 on the vertical inside frame plus some surface black marks and also one 4mm gouge on the top frame). Why would these now be hear if he removed from the outside?

He did say that there was come cement behind the frame - not sure if he has tried to force the window in or out?

I can fit a piece of card in a few areas between the window and rubber. I can fit a piece of paper all the way around the window with ease on the whole window pane. I tried this on the other windows and on the outside of the problem pane and I could not fit a piece of paper between.

I had problems before with CR Smith fitting my doors in a previous house and took this company on a personal recommendation to try and avoid probs again. They use profile 22 (I think) and only have one set of fitters, who are supposed to be good. I was going to cancel the cheque and re-issue another cheque for a reduced amount to retain until the work was completed but was talked out of it by the owner. Big mistake.


The problem is going to be if they say that the window is fine even thought it is not fully straight in the corner and the rubber is gapping. If the frame is now only slightly out, is this acceptable to a DG company?

Fluff

 

[crank39]

"I thought that the window was beaded on the inside. I cannot understand how he now has chip marks (around 4 on the vertical inside frame plus some surface black marks and also one 4mm gouge on the top frame). Why would these now be hear if he removed from the outside?"

It appears the fitter thought they were beaded from inside too and had a few stabs at trying to remove a bead that isn't a bead but infact part of the frame. If you have chip marks like in the PVC is chipped and missing then there are various repair methods, fillers, paints and stuff but if this a new window and you paid good money out then you insist on a new one and reject a repair. If they are just small dents or bruises caused by his tool used to remove the bead these can easily be repaired with gentle heat from a paint stripping heat gun, the dent will pop out and you'll never know they were there, but like i said if the PVC is chipped then it needs filling which in my opinion is unacceptable on a brand new window that 'YOU DIDN'T' damage.


As for the paper and card i would show the this when they next come out, something is wrong

 

[crank39]

Fluff have you seen this.....

http://www.centralscotlandjoinery.c...nding-to-be-part-of-central-scotland-joinery/

http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/01383626399

 

[Burnerman]

Fluff, it would have been a good move to stop that cheque - after being polite enough to tell the company of your intentions first, of course. Anyway, we can all be clever after the event.
My own approach is to be firm but fair, pointing out all of the faults from start to finish and the fact that the final job, if they consider it to be completed, is far from satisfactory.
Point out that, in your opinion, the only satisfactory solution is a replacement frame and glazing panel, and see what they say. Remind them that you have a pictorial record of the installation from start until now.
As a final gesture if they won't budge, use the phrase ' I shall have to seek advice from my legal advisors'.
No way will you get any money back.....!
Best wishes with this.
John

 

[fluff29]

I will be looking for the frame to be replaced as it has been damaged and I don't want a repair to the frame. Whether I get this will be another story.

Don't get me started on CR Smith. The product is good quality but the customer service is terrible. They did keep coming out until the doors were fixed properly but it took months and alot of time off work.

The rest of the windows in my new house are actually CR Smith and they are very good quality and have all been fitted well. Depends on the fitters I suppose.

Thanks again.

I will let you all know the outcome on Monday.

Fluff

 

[crank39]

Are they FENSA registered, do they boast of being, do they carry the logo on their vans? Looked on their website and i can't find the logo anywhere but sometimes you can miss.

A quick check on the FENSA site and it appears they are not known to FENSA suggesting they're not registered, if so have they given you a certificate?

 

[fluff29]

Hi guys

Had the owner of the company around last night.

He will get a new frame made today. The fixed pane of glass and the window which opens will be put into the new frame. They will not need to take the wooden facings off inside as they can remove the window from the outside because the house does not have checks? Quite happy with this result.

However, when speaking the the guy who makes the windows last night, he is not concerned about the black rubber seal being up tight to the window. They say that this is only there to help hold the window in place and serves no purpose.

I just feel that bits of dust and things will get in the gap between the rubber and the glass. Would I be quite within my rights to request that the rubber touches both the glass and the frame?

The other windows in my house do not have a gap between the rubber and the glass.

Thanks again

Fluff

 

[Burnerman]

Hi Fluff
Thanks for the update!
There's no problem with using the existing glazing panel, or the opening sash.
I'm intrigued about the rubber seal....surely its this that holds the glass tightly in place when the glazing beads are pushed in? I've never come across one with gaps in, as surely that would make it easy for the glass to be removed again?
If the rubber had no purpose, it wouldn't be there...
Although the glass panel is officially watertight, you don't really want water getting in there as it will eventually compromise the glass unit. Perhaps you could ask them how come the other windows aren't like this?
Stick to your guns...can you be there when the job is being done?
Cheers John

 

[fluff29]

Hi john

The window which has a gap between the internal bead and the rubber is on the inside on the window which is beaded externally. Therefore I can't understand why the glass in not pushed up tight against the inside rubber and then held in place externally by the rubber and frame?

Not to sure if this is how it works but I would have thought that everything should be held tight against the inside frame with the external bead holding everything in at the end.

Thanks

Fluff

 

[Burnerman]

Fluff, I can only assume - so long as I am understanding this - that the window horizontal members are bowed inwards......in other words, if you are standing looking out of the window, there is a gap in the lower transome between frame and glass, towards you? If you have a long level or straight edge, put it on the bottom part of the frame (the transome) and see if its straight.
John

 

[crank39]

Take a look at the pvc window cross section in this link....

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?i...ection&ndsp=20&hl=en&rlz=1W1ADFA_en&sa=N&um=1

Ignore the actual section shape but look where the rubber touches the glass each side, the bead uses the spring effect in both rubbers to clamp the glass tight, not vice like tight but just enough so as you cant slip paper or card in between.

If the glass unit can be pushed outwards or inwards to create a gap then its wrong, either the overall thickness of the unit is too thin or its had the wrong rubbers fitted as i've said before.

As you've confirmed before this is an ext beaded window which nowadays should use a co-extruded bead meaning the black rubber is part of the bead not a seperate part hence the term 'co-extruded'

The rubber on the frame is either a wedge gasket (see link), shaped like a wedge and forced in AFTER the glass is in, this forces the glass outwards and locks the bead into place hopefully stopping burglars removing the beads although it has been known,

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/results.php?category_id=15&sub_category_id=104

Or its a foam tape, double sided with glue (see link),often called security tape, sticks to the frame and then the glass is pushed onto that from the outside and then the bead is clipped in, if a burglar removes the beads the glass is still held in place

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/results.php?category_id=15&sub_category_id=106

If either of these are used its pysically impossible to have this gap you've got.

the other gasket is a flapper or bubble gasket (see link) and this should only be used where an opening window (sash) closes onto the frame as security isn't an issue here just weather proofing

http://www.dgsupplyline.co.uk/results.php?category_id=15&sub_category_id=109

Hope this has given you some insight into how beads and gaskets work

 

[fluff29]

Hi guys

Spent the last 15 mins looking at the window. It is definately not a bubble rubber. This type of rubber is around the opening window and the fixed pane of glass does not have this type of rubber.

Checked the whole frame with a spirit level and the whole frame is out slightly and I think this may be causing the probs.

one last attempt to explain what the rubber looks like.

The area where there is a gap is in the top left corner where the bowed frame was and there is also a gap in the bottom horizontal and the top horizontal.

If I was to run my finger along the frame across the top of the rubber the rubber sits quite flush in line with the frame. If I was to look down at the rubber on the bottom horizontal from above, I can see a gap of about 1 - 2mm between the black rubber (which is tight to the white frame) and the pane of glass.

This is the same situation at all areas around the window where the rubber isn't touching the window pane.

There are no draughts around the areas where there is a gap and the glass does not move inwards or outwards.

I have the same type of rubbers on my CR smith windows where the rubber is flush with the top of the frame. The top of the rubber when I look down at it is approx 3 mm on my new windows.

Sorry, but does this explain things any better?

We think that the frame is warped and that the problem will be sorted with the new window frame.

From what you are both saying, I think that the rubber should fit all the way up to the glass and there should be no gap.

How is the glass fixed in place?

Would the internal rubber be fitted in first, then the glass put in then the external rubber then the external bead or bead with rubber fitted?

many thanks

fluff

 

[crank39]

Hi Fluff

The glass just sits on plastic glazing packers in the bottom profile, depending on the width of the window its generally one at each end, usually a blue 5mm thick one but could vary. If its a side hung opener or a door then theres a bit more to it but its still supported with packers.

As for the gap lets hope your new window cures all your troubles.

The order its all assembled standing outside with the frame fitted as follows

1/ put a packer in both sides
2/ lift glass and place centrally (width and height) into frame
3/ if you have openers above this glass unit then put a packer in between the glass and the pvc profile to stop it bowing with weight (this is on top of the glass)
4/ clip all 4 beads in
5/ go inside
6/ push glass outwards against the beads
7/ in the gap you now have push in wedge gasket, this should now hold the whole job tight

If you have security tape then its the same as above apart from you have to un roll some and stick it to the frame, peel the backing off then lift the glass in following 4 onwards

Also now 5,6,7 dont apply, the spongyness of the tape should take up the gap and push the glass out

If you have neither of these then im at a loss, id love to see it, any chance of some photos Fluff?

 

[fluff29]

found another picture of a cross section of a window. I definately don't have tape, it is a gasket of some type.

This is a picture of the piece of card which has fitted comfortably into the gap. can't get any better pictures because of light reflection.

View media item 17572
This problem will hopefully be sorted with the new frame but both the guy who makes the windows and the owner of the company said there is no problem with having a gap and I therefore anticipate that should the new frame also have this problem, then they will be unwilling to fix it as they see this as being acceptable.

really getting stressed about this now.

going to do some wallpapering to relax.

fluff

 

[crank39]

Im confused now, from that picture it looks like its int beaded, also looks like a co-extruded bead, the gasket is a foamy rubber type bonded to the bead, its not actually stuck to the glass hence why you can slide the card in

See what happens with the new window!