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Help with Drayton Wiser install

Discussion in 'Home Automation' started by kasabians, 3 Dec 2018.

  1. kasabians

    kasabians

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    Hi guys,

    I'm installing my new Drayton Wiser kit 3 to replace my existing Danfoss system (TP9000 downstairs and TP5000 upstairs).

    When reading the manual it says " If there is an existing wired thermostat, it must be completely disconnected, i.e. remove the thermostat wires from the wiring centre - a link must be inserted between the terminals where the thermostat common and call for heat wires are located in the wiring centre."

    Im a bit of a newbie at this but I’m wondering if I need to alter anything in the wiring centre as the remote sensor is wired into the TP9000, far right terminals in 2nd photo.

    Also when installing the Wiser panel, it has 2 calls for heating, but am I right in thinking I have one from the tp9000 and one from the tp5000, both going to the wiring centre...if so does that put a spanner on an “easy” install?

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks

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    Last edited: 3 Dec 2018
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  3. stem

    stem

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    That applies to systems that have a separate room thermostat that is not part of the programmer. Programmable thermostats contain both elements in one, so it doesn't apply.

    As the TP9000 is both devices combined into one, then there isn't a separate thermostat to need the above modification. Although it has a remote sensor the TP9000 actually is the thermostat that does the electrical switching, and the sensor should just be considered part of it so can simply be removed along with it.

    At the the moment you have:
    • TP9000 A programmable thermostat for the downstairs heating zone, that also controls the hot water on & off times
    • TP5000 A programmable thermostat for the upstairs heating zone
    But as you suspect the wiser controls all three from the one unit, so your fears are realised I'm afraid.
     
  4. kasabians

    kasabians

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    Thanks for your reply. It’s strange, as surely my setup is pretty standard for dual zone heating. So Wiser is pretty much a start from scratch setup?!

    What would suggest as an alternative to Wiser? I wanted a system with individual room control.
     
  5. stem

    stem

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    Zoned systems are fairly new in any great number due to the UK building regulations only requiring them to be installed in new properties since 2013.

    When they became compulsory, there were few if any 'off the shelf' programmers for controlling two heating zones and hot water. Therefore, systems were assembled from the components that were already on the market. The most common arrangement was to use a dual channel programmer for one zone and the hot water, and then add a programmable thermostat for the other heating zone. Which is the arrangement that you have. In time manufacturers such as Wiser, Horstmann, Danfoss, etc. have produced three channel programmers / thermostats specifically for the purpose.

    There are three common methods of wiring zoned installations, one like yours, one like the Wiser, and a third variant for combi boilers that don't need timed hot water.

    For your system, an easier install from a wiring point of view would probably be to use Two Hive thermostats. One would replace the TP9000 and control one zone and hot water, the other would replace the TP5000. Even then, depending the variant of the TP5000 that you have, you may find you need to run a new 230V supply for the second Hive. [Nest is similar but doesn't use the standard back plate, so extra reconfiguration of the wiring is required] TRV's should be fitted for individual room control.

    For more sophisticated individual room control, TRV's that are linked to a central control system such as Honeywell evohome, would be an alternative.
     
    Last edited: 4 Dec 2018
  6. kasabians

    kasabians

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    Thanks again and that makes sense - my house was completed in 2013 so I'm glad to have dual zone heating just shame they are independent.

    The TP5000 is powered so I could get 2 Hives but shame they haven't released any TRVs so might wait until then.

    I friend has Evohome and raves about it, for me it costs too much to justify atm.
     
  7. kasabians

    kasabians

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    @stem What are your thoughts on Tado with my layout? Could I use their smart thermostat to control heating upstairs (replace TP5000) and then extension kit (with another thermostat) to control heating downstairs and hot water (replace TP9000)?
     
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  9. stem

    stem

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    I would have thought so, but didn't mention it earlier because I' not 100% certain. I haven't installed a multi zone that includes hot water using Tado.

    I know you can have single zone and hot water, or two heating zones. Certainly from a wiring point of view it can be done, as long as the Tado software supports it.

    Their website talks about only being able to have "one extension kit per account" I'm not sure in practice what that actually means :confused:

    Capture.JPG

    However, their website offers a service where they would check what you would need for your system, and there's chat and a telephone number too, so you could check with them quite easily.
     
  10. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Reading what you both say, I think I should say in hind sight, I wish I had not gone for cheap option and had gone for EvoHome from start. However EvoHome as said seemed expensive, so I wanted to get better control for late mother's house, now mine.

    So my mistakes, so hopefully you will not make the same errors.
    1) Cheap programmable wireless thermostat, problem was there was no fail safe, so lost RF link and found house at 28°C when it failed to turn off. Cheap wired OK, cheap wireless no good.
    2) Expensive wireless thermostat with fail safe, also had anti-hysteresis software so it keeps turning heating off/on which does not help when located other than main room.
    3) Mid priced electronic heads for thermostatic radiator valves, at £80 a pair not cheap, plus needed hub, with the thermostat switching off/on they tend to open when boiler not running, then take a bit too long to close when boiler starts to run, so needed careful adjusting of the lock shield valve to stop them over shooting, this in spite of the anti hysteresis software meaning change temperature from 16°C to 20°C and quite rapid getting to 18°C but then can take 2 hours to get last 2°C.

    It seems only a Wave thermostat with work with my boiler to modulate it, Worcester Bosch have not gone for OpenTherm so unless I change boiler there is only one thermostat which modulates. However Wave only sets temperature in one room, and I wanted to control temperature in at least two rooms, my idea was simple, use TRV (standard type) to stop room over heating, and then use two thermostats one in night room and one in day room with timers so it switched from one to other. Idea was sound, let down by faulty thermostats.

    I found the standard TRV is not very accurate, when the wall thermostat stuck on, room may have reached 24°C but should not have hit 28°C the electronic heads cured this, however the time taken for change i.e. heat stored in fabric of room, means in real terms day temperature and night temperature, even if it can be set for geofencing, room temperature change time means all the internet connecting was a waste of money, I could have bought electronic programmable heads non wifi for under £20 each there was no need for internet, although before moving in with mother, being able to monitor temperature was good.

    So hind sight Terrier i30 would have likely been just as good as my Energenie TRV heads and a lot cheaper, I had intended to fit Nest later which works with Energenie but since can't use the OpenTherm never bothered. And I should have got the thermostats hard wired when house was rewired then I could have used cheap programmable thermostats instead of expensive wireless types, so the boiler would not be switched off/on so often. Or I should have gone whole hog and used EvoHome.

    Yes what I have now works, and works well, however it took ages to work out how to set up and get it as it is now.

    So for you, I assume you are trying to save on heating bill by not heating rooms when not in use, you already have two zones, so to improve on that you need more zones, and the easy way to get more zones is the electronic head on the TRV. So £13 per radiator for cheap i30 or hundreds of pounds for EvoHome, don't get me wrong, if I buy another house and it needs new central heating it would be OpenTherm boiler and EvoHome, but with what I know now, with this house, stuck with a non OpenTherm boiler, I would use two or more hard wired cheap programmable thermostats, and terrier i30 heads. If I want ability to switch on/off with internet, I would use a relay, i.e. simple on or off, I have no need to alter temperature remotely on/off is good enough. OK frost stat across relay contacts to stop freezing.

    So either go for full automation, or go for cheap, going for cheap leaves you with a few hundred to spare, so the odd time heating comes on too early will not really matter.
     
  11. kasabians

    kasabians

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    Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I'm looking to get Hive or Tado if Black Friday deals can sway me. My upstairs zone, controlled by battery tp5000, can I swap this for a Hive multizone as they are battery operated? I'm unsure as the advice a couple of years ago was that it needs a live supply.
     
  12. JohnFol

    JohnFol

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    I am by no means an expert, or have years of experience in this field but I have a dual zone heating system from a house built in the 80's that had Datatherm (?) controllers. I replaced them with "Drayton Wiser Smart Thermostat Dual Zone Heating and Hot Water Control" aka the Wiser Kit 3.
    The kit comes with 2 thermostat controllers with colour screens that you can place anywhere in the house (mine are stood up on a cabinet) They allow you to boost the temp for a period of time or change temperature settings on the fly. What was the reason for retaining the Danfoss controllers?
     
  13. stem

    stem

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    @kasabians you are correct. Your present thermostat is battery powered, but the Hive & Tado Receivers require 230V supply to power them.

    Remember though that the Receiver can be located remotely from the Thermostat.

    So, for example, with the Hive Thermostat which is wire free, it can be located where the TP5000 is now, and the receiver could be mounted elsewhere in a convenient position for the wiring to be routed to it.

    [​IMG]

    As well as the new 230V supply to N and L, the wires currently going to the TP5000 COM and N/O terminals will need to connect to the COMMON and NO terminals of the Hive Receiver.

    However, with Tado there is the option of a battery operated wired thermostat for a second zone which can replace a wired thermostat.

    Capture.JPG

    The Tado receiver then normally replaces an existing programmer controlling the heating and hot water (depending on your installation) which will already have a 230V supply.
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2020 at 12:49 PM
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