Horizontal safe zone with 'dry lining' back boxes

[ebee]

I'm not totally sure about that. I'm going to ask this question in two stages ....

... firstly, if you were a man with a drill in your hand and saw this on a wall, would you (like, I imagine,most people) believe that this accessory created vertical and horizonal 'zones' (where you should not drill!) equal in breadth and height to the breadth and height of the accessory?

View attachment 394636

Yes I would take the dimensions of such as dictating the zones John.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

'Knowing where to stop' is always an issue with potentially 'creeping' applications of common sense. Take speed limits. We might agree that driving at 71 mph in a 70 mph zone is not something to worry about. So if 71 is OK, then what about 72? - and if 72 is OK, what about 73 etc. etc .

The thing about applying common sense, is that you have to apply it.

 

[JohnW2]

The thing about applying common sense, is that you have to apply it.

Indeed so, but as I attempted to illustrate, that 'application' is far from straightforward - if 71 mph is sow close to 70 mph that common sense say that it is 'OK' (after all, the exact figure of the limit is essentially arbitrary in the first place), then if 71 is OK, then isn't the same common sense at risk of concluding that 72, 73 etc. etc. are also OK?

 

[pete01]

I totally agree, but only because of the application of common sense to what would otherwise be a 'strict rule'.. The problem then becomes the question of 'where does one stop?' - if we agree about your yellow mark, what about my orange one, or my blue one, or ..... ?
'Knowing where to stop' is always an issue with potentially 'creeping' applications of common sense. Take speed limits. We might agree that driving at 71 mph in a 70 mph zone is not something to worry about. So if 71 is OK, then what about 72? - and if 72 is OK, what about 73 etc. etc .
However, this wasn't my point. I'm waiting for ebee to answer my "Question 1" before I move to Q2

View attachment 394655

Yellow 20 years
Orange 15 years
Blue 10 years

 

[JohnW2]

Yes I would take the dimensions of such as dictating the zones John.

I imagine you would, since I would think that virtually all of us would say the same.

However, what if I did a bit of dismantling, and revealed that the below was what was going on? We would hopefully still be agreed that, as with the first picture, the visible accessory would still be defining the zones, but ("Question 2" !) this does bring into some question your view that 'the box' define the zones, doesn't it?

 

[JohnW2]

Yellow 20 years .... Orange 15 years .... Blue 10 years

What are they - the periods you think one has to wait until someone penetrates the cable with something, or what? If that's what they were meant to represent, I'd be tempted to multiply them all by 5, if not 10 or more

However, again, we're talking about common sense, which is not what matters to those who believe that all rules, regulations and laws have to be strictly observed 'to the letter'!

 

[pete01]

What are they - the periods you think one has to wait until someone penetrates the cable with something, or what? If that's what they were meant to represent, I'd be tempted to multiply them all by 5, if not 10 or more

However, again, we're talking about common sense, which is not what matters to those who believe that all rules, regulations and laws have to be strictly observed 'to the letter'!

I've not been following it all properly, id probably just say it's going to worry you or anyone else.....dont go horizontal, go up across and back down

 

[ebee]

The thing about applying common sense, is that you have to apply it.

Yes but then the problem of applying and then applying and then applying ad infinitum makes the whole ting a fiasco.

Example - a couple of years ago one of our councillors suggested someone need not bother lowering their fence because it was only a little bit overlimit.
His idea of a little bit was certainly a very lot more than my idea of a little bit

I imagine you would, since I would think that virtually all of us would say the same.

However, what if I did a bit of dismantling, and revealed that the below was what was going on? We would hopefully still be agreed that, as with the first picture, the visible accessory would still be defining the zones, but ("Question 2" !) this does bring into some question your view that 'the box' define the zones, doesn't it?

View attachment 394664

Sorry if I have not defined my opinion clearly John.
No - the faceplate self actually defines the zone itself as the faceplate makes the object the socket/switch or whatever it is.
That is the determination and as long as we work to the minimum dimension of any number of proprietary faceplates to a recognised standard then all well and good.
If I, or anyone else scribe and plan using the backbox and use the difference as a demarcation zone then all well and good we still use the faceplate dimensions as the determination for zone.
I think that is all we can do and is reasonable.
I do realise that some people use say a top or bottom hole in a metal backbox with or without grommet and that could take the route out of zone or simply too close to the zone limit in practice anyway. It would also usually be too sharp a bend to my liking.
If someone used the full faceplate zone right down to the last tenth of a thou I could not really fault it could I? although I would not like it at all.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Indeed so, but as I attempted to illustrate, that 'application' is far from straightforward

Common sense - in this case, is there even the slightest chance of anyone needing to fix anything there, in such close proximity to the socket? If the answer is an obvious 'never in a million years', then you apply common sense and ignore the rule.

then if 71 is OK, then isn't the same common sense at risk of concluding that 72, 73 etc. etc. are also OK?

On motorways, the cops are mostly happy to allow up to 80, depending on conditions, but sometime you might come across one of the 'rules, is rules' types.

 

[JohnW2]

I've not been following it all properly ....

Fair enough, but that doesn't help me to understand what your "10, 15 and 20 years" were meant to mean

, id probably just say it's going to worry you or anyone else.....dont go horizontal, go up across and back down

As I keep saying, it doesn't worry me one jot. As for those who want to strictly follow regulations, yes, they could do as you suggest, but my version of common sense says that to do so 'unnecessarily' would be essentially silly!

 

[JohnW2]

Common sense - in this case, is there even the slightest chance of anyone needing to fix anything there, in such close proximity to the socket? If the answer is an obvious 'never in a million years', then you apply common sense and ignore the rule.

That obviously depends upon 'how far one has taken it' - i.e. whether you're talking about pete's yellow blob, my orange or blue ones, or one even further way than my blue one. I personally would be very hesitant to penetrate a wall (unless I had positive reasons for knowing it was 'safe') within a coupleof inches (maybe more) of where 'the zone should end', but that doesn't mean that I think the zones should be defines as extending 2 inches beyond the borders of the accessory.

On motorways, the cops are mostly happy to allow up to 80, depending on conditions ...

You're just changing the numbers. If they are 'happy with' 80, then common sense might say that 81 was so close as to also be 'OK' - and if 81 is OK, then .......

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

That obviously depends upon 'how far one has taken it' - i.e. whether you're talking about pete's yellow blob, my orange or blue ones, or one even further way than my blue one.

Well, would the yellow, orange, and blue blobs on the wall be an obvious sign not to drill there?

 

[JohnW2]

Sorry if I have not defined my opinion clearly John. ... No - the faceplate self actually defines the zone itself as the faceplate makes the object the socket/switch or whatever it is.

Yes, but you were also seeming concerned that if an 'oversized faceplate' (or maybe a standard size one with a surrounding 'finger plate') were allowed to define a zone, then there would be a risk that it would subsequently would be replaced by a standard-size accessory, leaving cables outside of the zone. That's what I have just illustrated - take away the 'converter pattress' and replace with a single socket attached to the single box, and cables which you accept were previously 'within a zone' no longer would be.

Perhaps you could further clarify your opinion, particularly in the case I have just discussed?

 

[JohnW2]

Well, would the yellow, orange, and blue blobs on the wall be an obvious sign not to drill there?

You're getting silly now

 

[pete01]

Fair enough, but that doesn't help me to understand what your "10, 15 and 20 years" were meant to mean

As I keep saying, it doesn't worry me one jot. As for those who want to strictly follow regulations, yes, they could do as you suggest, but my version of common sense says that to do so 'unnecessarily' would be essentially silly!

Locked up for in years, it was a bad joke