OK, a slip of the pen on my part. As you have pointed out, I should have written "...by virtue of their position within the legal entity". Given that correction, the rest of what I recently wrote stands.
Kind Regards, John
householder wiring a circuit
- Thread starter Rioman
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Kind Regards, John
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But that's the whole point - it is the legal entity which has carried out the work, and by virtue of their position within the legal entity they are giving physical reality to a signed declaration made by the legal entity that the legal entity was responsible for and carried out the work.
As I said, the 'legal entity' may be a sole trader, who/which is free to engage the services (paid or unpaid) of employees, assistants or helpers' etc. in relation to work "undertaken by" that 'legal entity'.
Kind Regards, John
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Are you really worried about the installation or minor works certificate? I could inspect and test, design and install and complete the installation and/or minor works certificate and I can prove I have the training and experience to complete them. However what I can't do is ask my scheme provider to issue a compliance certificate as I don't have a scheme provider.
Be it the compliance certificate from scheme provider or the completion certificate from the LABC it is those which are important not the bits of paper any person should be able to complete who is able to do the work.
If you can't complete the minor works or installation certificate your not able to do the work.
Where the problem lies is not having the equipment to allow testing and I can see where one would want to employ someone to do the testing as it costs too much to buy the test equipment. So here in Wales I could use a three signature installation certificate and have some one with the meters sign the inspection and testing and I could sign for design and installation the stumbling block would be to get the LABC to accept those signatures.
In England you can use third part inspectors that is not allowed in Wales so in England you could again get some one to both inspect and test and get their scheme provider to issue a compliance certificate which could be cheaper than going down the LABC route with both routes the inspectors have to be involved before you start. I have not met a third party inspector yet as not sure how they judge your skills. As far as I can see third party inspectors are used by multi-trade firms so the electrician can go and test work done by another tradesman working for the same company rather than testing DIY work. So the electrician will get to know the skill of the allied tradesman and so he will not have to cross every t or dot every i he will in the main only inspect and test as he would for his own work.
It would be interesting to hear from some one who does do third part inspections as to what they charge and to what degree they test other peoples work?
Also where does one draw the line between an apprentice working for a tradesman and a allied tradesman work with an electrician at what point will the electrician be considered as being a third party inspector in other words at what point does the other trademan have to sign the installation certificate? As far as I am aware third party inspectors would use three signature forms? However when the LABC inspect they don't issue either a minor works or installation certificate all you get is the completion certificate so maybe the third party inspectors only authorise issue of a compliance certificate and don't sign any of the IET type paperwork?
The IET paperwork is not required only the completion or compliance certificate are legally required documents.
I did once visit a house owner who had some work done, they were disabled and the work was done because of the disability, the electrician has completed the installation certificate and the home owner was satisfied all was correct and above board. However he did not have either a completion or compliant certificate it seems the electrician thought the council was involved and that the home owner would forward the certificate to LABC or at least that is what he claimed. He did not have any indexations anywhere on paperwork or transport that said he was a member of a scheme so although it may have been morally wrong as far as the law goes he had committed no crime. The fact that the LABC don't issue permits to work does not help, it is all word of mouth or at least it was when I did it last. He told my son he could start and my son told me. He could have lied I had no way to know. He didn't and the completion certificate was issued. But until 3 months latter when I saw the certificate lying on the floor at my dads house as the electrician who did the work I was never contacted by the council and I had no idea if the job passed or not. Had it not been for my dad likely I would never know if it passed.
Be it the compliance certificate from scheme provider or the completion certificate from the LABC it is those which are important not the bits of paper any person should be able to complete who is able to do the work.
If you can't complete the minor works or installation certificate your not able to do the work.
Where the problem lies is not having the equipment to allow testing and I can see where one would want to employ someone to do the testing as it costs too much to buy the test equipment. So here in Wales I could use a three signature installation certificate and have some one with the meters sign the inspection and testing and I could sign for design and installation the stumbling block would be to get the LABC to accept those signatures.
In England you can use third part inspectors that is not allowed in Wales so in England you could again get some one to both inspect and test and get their scheme provider to issue a compliance certificate which could be cheaper than going down the LABC route with both routes the inspectors have to be involved before you start. I have not met a third party inspector yet as not sure how they judge your skills. As far as I can see third party inspectors are used by multi-trade firms so the electrician can go and test work done by another tradesman working for the same company rather than testing DIY work. So the electrician will get to know the skill of the allied tradesman and so he will not have to cross every t or dot every i he will in the main only inspect and test as he would for his own work.
It would be interesting to hear from some one who does do third part inspections as to what they charge and to what degree they test other peoples work?
Also where does one draw the line between an apprentice working for a tradesman and a allied tradesman work with an electrician at what point will the electrician be considered as being a third party inspector in other words at what point does the other trademan have to sign the installation certificate? As far as I am aware third party inspectors would use three signature forms? However when the LABC inspect they don't issue either a minor works or installation certificate all you get is the completion certificate so maybe the third party inspectors only authorise issue of a compliance certificate and don't sign any of the IET type paperwork?
The IET paperwork is not required only the completion or compliance certificate are legally required documents.
I did once visit a house owner who had some work done, they were disabled and the work was done because of the disability, the electrician has completed the installation certificate and the home owner was satisfied all was correct and above board. However he did not have either a completion or compliant certificate it seems the electrician thought the council was involved and that the home owner would forward the certificate to LABC or at least that is what he claimed. He did not have any indexations anywhere on paperwork or transport that said he was a member of a scheme so although it may have been morally wrong as far as the law goes he had committed no crime. The fact that the LABC don't issue permits to work does not help, it is all word of mouth or at least it was when I did it last. He told my son he could start and my son told me. He could have lied I had no way to know. He didn't and the completion certificate was issued. But until 3 months latter when I saw the certificate lying on the floor at my dads house as the electrician who did the work I was never contacted by the council and I had no idea if the job passed or not. Had it not been for my dad likely I would never know if it passed.
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I thought we were discussing the notification of a "new circuit"? AIUI, the OP appears to be proposing to do the work and then get an electrician to self-certify it, and BAS's concern is that this would involve lying on the part of the electrician.
Kind Regards, John
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I noticed the quotes from the installation certificate and I would agree one should not be signing that you have done some thing which in fact you have not done. However at the end of the day the installation certificate is not the important bit it's the compliance or completion certificate which is the important one and they are issued by council or scheme provider.
In theroy there is no need for a installation certificate to even exist in order to get a completion certificate. It worries me when people talk about an installation certificate as if it is a legal requirement as they may not get the certificates that are legal as a result.
OK we may submit an installation certificate in order to get a completion or compliance certificate but it is up to the LABC or scheme provider to decide if the person signing the installation certificate is trustworthy enough to issue the completion or compliance certificate without further investigation. So should I do a rotten job and fudge up an installation certificate and submit it to the council and on the back of it they issue a completion certificate and latter some one is killed then the council will need to show that they took reasonable precautions to ensure my work was up to standard.
Clearly if I have qualifications as an electrician they have good cause to do nothing more than a casual glance to see if it's good, and if I am completely without any formal qualification they would need to do a more stringent set of tests. But they are responsible for ensuring site safety, in the same way the scheme provider is responsible for don't reasonable checks to see the electricians work is up to scratch.
So if there was a death the scheme provider would need to show how the checked the electricians work. If it was found the work inspected have inconsistent results they would need to show why they did not think this was reason for further inspections. If an electrician used his privilege of being a member of a scheme to simply make money selling compliance certificates then the scheme provider should be don't enough checks to show this was the case and remove him from their list.
However this was one of the points raised at the review and there seems to be two major problems. One was very few electricians had been expelled from being scheme members and the second was the law as it was at the time does not allow scheme providers to share black list names. So the electrician can simply swap provider, as to if this loop hole is now plugged I don't know?
Although with the Emma Shaw case the electrical foreman was found guilty that was before Part P started. As to what would happen today is another story and it would be interesting to see a summary of a modern court case.
Which is why I often ask people if they intend to apply for Building Regulations approval, or, if they have, what they said/allowed to be said on their behalf/by default accepted/etc would be the way they would comply with Part P.
Unfortunately the purity and simplicity of that question is often obscured by the miasma of carp sprayed out by all the children on this site who are so stupid that they are completely unable to grasp the concept of reading words which are written.
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