IEE Regs

[RJT]

Hi Guys

I need to know the regs numbers so that I can quote in a letter of complaint. The first issue is the reg that prevents a 'fixed' installation being wired in flex and secondly the reg pertaining to the use of the new style core colours (brown/blue) being installed whilst old style wiring (red/black) is used ie when there is an additional and new install to the existing.

As a result of this request I can assure you that I am not about to do any form of installation.

Many thanks, might save me going out and spending £60 on the regs just to find this info.

 

[davelx]

Hi Guys

I need to know the regs numbers so that I can quote in a letter of complaint. The first issue is the reg that prevents a 'fixed' installation being wired in flex and secondly the reg pertaining to the use of the new style core colours (brown/blue) being installed whilst old style wiring (red/black) is used ie when there is an additional and new install to the existing.

As a result of this request I can assure you that I am not about to do any form of installation.

Many thanks, might save me going out and spending £60 on the regs just to find this info.

The regs do not specifically prevent a fixed installation being wired in flex. 521.9.1. states:

"A flexible cable shall be used for fixed wiring only where the relevant provisions of the Regulations are met. Flexible cables used for fixed wiring shall be of the heavy duty type unless the risk of damage during installation and service, due to impac tor other mechanical stresses, is low or has been minimised or protection against mechanical damage is provided"

As is often the case there is significant room for opinion here!

There is nothing to prevent the use of both old and new cable colour codes in an installation. Generally additions or alteration will be wired in cables to the current colour code, though there are some (including me) who would argue that that creates a greater potential hazard than keeping to the old colours and documenting it as a departure from the regs in the EIC/MWC. Where old and new colours are mixed due to additions or alterations, 514.14.1 requires that a warning notice be "affixed at or near the appropriate distribution board" and provides the wording to be used.

 

[RJT]

Thanks, I can use the bit about 'heavy duty' in my complaint letter!

 

[davelx]

Thanks, I can use the bit about 'heavy duty' in my complaint letter!

it will be, of course, a matter of opinion as to whether the way the cables are installed provides sufficient protection to render the use of standard duty flexible cables acceptable.

 

[riveralt]

Out of interest, what is the fixed installation?

 

[RJT]

A supply to a newly installed gas central heating system. Incidentally, found to be paralleled into the existing immersion heater circuit

 

[riveralt]

A supply to a newly installed gas central heating system. Incidentally, found to be paralleled into the existing immersion heater circuit

I have seen both the immersion and central heating boiler system put on the same circuit before - quite often done when there isn't a spare way at the consumer unit.
If the cabling is correctly rated and its current carrying capacity exceeds the fuse/MCB rating then there is no problem with what he has done. After all it is just a radial circuit.
With regard to your CH system I would expect to find flexible heat resistant cable between the power supply (3/5A fused plug or fused connection unit) and the boiler. So again nothing wrong with that.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks, I can use the bit about 'heavy duty' in my complaint letter!

As most of the other responses have implied, on the basis of what you've told us I think you might struggle to get a complaint 'upheld'. It sounds as if aspects of what have been done are either 'not disallowed' or are subject to 'matters of opinion'. Are there 'issues' about the work other than the electrical ones you have mentioned?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RJT]

Yes, there are certainly much more issues than the electric install both with the gas & water.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, there are certainly much more issues than the electric install both with the gas & water.

It may be best to 'major' on the non-electrical issues then, since I can see the electrical ones you have mentioned resulting in 'discussion/argument' at the very least! For example, if (as you sugegsted) you cited the reference to 'heavy duty flex' from 521.9.1, they could well come back and refer you to the rest of the sentence ("...unless....").

Edit: typo corrected (thanks to riveralt)
Kind Regards, John

 

[riveralt]

If the reference to 521.9.1 is in relation to the central heating boiler than it doesn't really matter about reading on because all the boilers I have been involved in fitting, admittedly mainly Vaillant, stipulate flexible heat resistant cable between 0.75/1.5mm² in their installation manuals.

 

[JohnW2]

If the reference to 521.9.1 is in relation to the central heating boiler than it doesn't really matter about reading on because all the boilers I have been involved in fitting, admittedly mainly Vaillant, stipulate flexible heat resistant cable between 0.75/1.5mm² in their installation manuals.

That makes sense, but (as so often!) we really don't know enough details - the OP may well have been talking about more widespread use of flex than in just that one (very reasonable) place. He may clarify. ... and thanks for pointing out my typo. As I'm sure you're aware, my ('two finger') typing very often results in adjacent character transpostions ("obvioulsy"!!) - with words, the intended meaning is usually clear (although "sue" instead of "use" can be a problem!!) - but it matters a bit more with numbers!

Kind Regards, John

 

[RJT]

I had no trouble with a length of heat resistant flex going into the boiler and I was not questioning that. My concern, (along with earth clamps fitted to painted pipes, earth fault loop readings when no test was carried out, with a boiler that is fitted to a timber panel, with a overflow/vent pipe that finishes 100mm above a plasterboard ceiling rather than into a tank................ and the story goes on), is the flex that goes between the immersion heater DP switch to the 3a switched fused connection plate and then the many metres of flex that goes to a double conversion box with a blanking plate. It is from the conversion box that has the heat resistant flex going to boiler, the pump, the room thermostat wireless control & the programer which I was not concerned about.

The fixed installation between the circuit main control and conversion box should in my opinion be completed in cable rather than flex. My original questions should be noted, I was asking for the reg number so that the installers can convince me otherwise.

 

[JohnW2]

I had no trouble with a length of heat resistant flex going into the boiler and I was not questioning that. My concern, is the flex that goes between the immersion heater DP switch to the 3a switched fused connection plate and then the many metres of flex that goes to a double conversion box with a blanking plate. It is from the conversion box that has the heat resistant flex going to boiler, the pump, the room thermostat wireless control & the programer which I was not concerned about.

Thanks for clarify. As I implied in my recent post, I rather suspected something like that.

The fixed installation between the circuit main control and conversion box should in my opinion be completed in cable rather than flex. My original questions should be noted, I was asking for the reg number so that the installers can convince me otherwise.

Fair enough. You've been told the number of the regulation which may help you. As you've been told, even if this differs from your opinion, the regulation does not actually 'outlaw' the use of flex, so it really depends on their (any your) view of "...unless the risk of damage during installation and service, due to impac tor other mechanical stresses, is low". There is clearly scope for differing opinions! However, it sounds as if you have a good few things to complain about which are more straightforward!

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

The fixed installation between the circuit main control and conversion box should in my opinion be completed in cable rather than flex. My original questions should be noted, I was asking for the reg number so that the installers can convince me otherwise.

That's your opinion, but unfortunately that is not a requirement of BS7671.
Providing the flexed installation is compliant to 521.9.1.