Immigration Crisis

[motorbiking]

Date	Migrants detected	Boats detected
14 November 2022	400	8
15 November 2022	0	0
16 November 2022	0	0
17 November 2022	0	0
18 November 2022	0	0
19 November 2022	0	0
20 November 2022	0	0

Its been mostly rain with double digit cold wind. F5-F8 at times. I've sailed across the channel many times (though normally the longer route to Brittany). While the waves aren't like the Atlantic, you don't want to be doing it with wind over tide in F6+. At least the traffickers check the weather.

 

[motorbiking]

Have you thought about the reason that people are leaving their own countries and the problems that they have?

Yes they want a better life and a chance to work for more money to secure a better future for themselves and their family. They also want to get all their ailments fixed free of charge from one of the best healthcare systems in the world.

Illegal wars that the UK has been involved in?

Yes we should help those non-combatants who suffered at our hands in Afghanistan and Iraq with a priority being those at risk because they helped us.

Leftover effects of the exploitation of colonialism?

These are young men, I doubt they were exploited by Queen Victoria et al.

The unfairness of the wealth of developed countries vs the poverty of the third world?

The UK donates more and does more than many very wealthy countries (Saudi, Japan etc)

And yet those moaning about those people coming here (they are not illegal until to be legally deemed so) invariably call for foreign aid to be cut!

Actually they are illegal until they claim Asylum. Something that they don't appear to want to do while in Safe European countries. Why is that? See point 1 - perhaps?

 

[motorbiking]

According to some mysterious leaked report.

Death of 27 migrants in Channel: Investigators consider criminal charges against French rescue services

After 27 migrants died trying to cross the Channel in 2021, French police investigating the sinking of the dinghy are questioning the actions of CROSS (Regional Maritime Surveillance and Rescue Operational Center), who refused to send a rescue ship.

www.lemonde.fr

Its being run by all the respectable news papers. As you are aware in France there is

Quiconque pouvant empêcher par son action immédiate, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, soit un crime, soit un délit contre l'intégrité corporelle de la personne s'abstient volontairement de le faire est puni de cinq ans d'emprisonnement et de 75 000 euros d'amende. Sera puni des mêmes peines quiconque s'abstient volontairement de porter à une personne en péril l'assistance que, sans risque pour lui ou pour les tiers, il pouvait lui prêter soit par son action personnelle, soit en provoquant un secours.

which roughly translates into - you commit a crime if you do not help someone or call for help, when they are in danger, providing it does not place you in danger to help or causes you to commit a crime (5 years prison / 75k fine).

 

[ajohn]

There has been a sea change in public opinion on immigration in the past decade,

That has been encouraged. All well and good maybe but people such as Farage and certain groups have bought refugees into the equation and that has got tangled up with the entire area. The people who take more extreme views in that area will be a relatively small proportion of the population or more would have joined the national front. Farage also said the same thing about the potential for immigration from the EU especially from some areas. That really is just his anti EU aspect. Some seem to think that leaving the EU would do something about refugees. There is no reason why it would. The thing that "protects" them is the convention. No country can just deport them without processing them and that depends on which country they aim to get to.

Interesting graph

You might think the increase in ~2004 is due to policy - no it's down to new EU countries. Poland and we all should be aware of the general jobs they were filling. All show the same trend.
More on immigration

Migration Statistics Quarterly Report - Office for National Statistics

Immigration to the UK and emigration from the UK, including net migration (the difference between immigration and emigration).

www.ons.gov.uk

 

[gant]

Building site workers?

 

[Pat ex]

Death of 27 migrants in Channel: Investigators consider criminal charges against French rescue services

After 27 migrants died trying to cross the Channel in 2021, French police investigating the sinking of the dinghy are questioning the actions of CROSS (Regional Maritime Surveillance and Rescue Operational Center), who refused to send a rescue ship.

www.lemonde.fr

Its being run by all the respectable news papers. As you are aware in France there is



which roughly translates into - you commit a crime if you do not help someone or call for help, when they are in danger, providing it does not place you in danger to help or causes you to commit a crime (5 years prison / 75k fine).

French police investigating the sinking of the dinghy are questioning the actions of CROSS (Regional Maritime Surveillance and Rescue Operational Center
Could France's rescue services be held criminally responsible for the drowning of migrants in the English Channel? The accusation is being seriously considered by the French police

It's being investigated, it's being considered.
Well yes, you'd expect that to happen. Is there any comparative investigation going on in UK for UK rescue srvices?

 

[Pat ex]

Actually they are illegal until they claim Asylum.

You are suggesting that anyone in a foreign country is illegal, by default?

• There is no such thing as an ‘illegal’ or ‘bogus’ asylum seeker. Under international law, anyone has the right to apply for asylum in any country that has signed the 1951 Convention and to remain there until the authorities have assessed their claim
• It is recognised in the 1951 Convention that people fleeing persecution may have to use irregular means in order to escape and claim asylum in another country – there is no legal way to travel to the UK for the specific purpose of seeking asylum
• The 1951 Refugee Convention guarantees everybody the right to apply for asylum. It has saved millions of lives.

There is nothing in international law to say that refugees must claim asylum in the first country they reach.

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

 

[ajohn]

Yes we should help those non-combatants who suffered at our hands in Afghanistan and Iraq with a priority being those at risk because they helped us.

Some Tory have pointed out that refugees from some areas could be processed more quickly on the basis that they will have leave to stay one way or another. You missed out Syria but in real terms any current trouble spot. There is a new type of late. Countries going broke. Might result in yet more.

That graph I posted misses one point on UK nationals. Age. Immigrants are likely to be relatively young - much easier to get a job. They may also be more "tractable". A person who is over 50 is likely to find it harder to get another job, even a "lesser" one. Even over 40 really as well.

 

[ajohn]

Building site workers?

Cafe, care, hospitality and all sorts, Even fully fledged builders.

 

[gant]

Interesting one about when we held the Olympic games in London how those who worked on it had to keep schtum or face being booted off.

 

[Notch7]

Yes they want a better life and a chance to work for more money to secure a better future for themselves and their family. They also want to get all their ailments fixed free of charge from one of the best healthcare systems in the world

Most refugees would prefer to stay in their own country, but war or persecution has made them flee.

This idea they are lazy scroungers wanting to come here for economic gain is not really true


In terms of healthcare, most coming across the channel are young healthy men - I guarantee they don’t give a sh1t about healthcare.


There are those escaping poverty / lack of opportunity, like Albanians - they are indeed economic migrants.


An honest conversation would discuss both groups - not focus on one.

 

[motorbiking]

@Pat ex Have the UK rescue services ignored calls for help? Have the UK rescue services stood down ships in the location telling them they were sending rescue when they weren't. These are the allegations faced. Also there is no equivalent duty to help/rescue law in the UK. Worth also remembering that there is no "free" RNLI in France, the SNSM charges rescue fees and is similar to Seastart in the UK.

You are suggesting that anyone in a foreign country is illegal, by default?

Bingo - if you do not hold citizenship, residency etc, a visa or have a right to enter that country - you are there illegally.

For the avoidance of doubt:
- If you enter a country (in this case France) without the lawful authority to do so, you break various Immigration Laws. The treaty you refer to is enacted in (French) law. A State must excuse reasonable breaches of immigration law committed by someone seeking Asylum. These are referred to as Defences based on Article 31(1) of the Refugee Convention.

In the UK its here:

Immigration and Asylum Act 1999

An Act to make provision about immigration and asylum; to make provision about procedures in connection with marriage on superintendent registrar’s certificate; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

If you do not seek Asylum you are not excused for your breach of immigration law. This is why the "honest Albanian" I posted about earlier was immediately deported and banned from entering the UK (and therefore by default many other countries) for 3 years. He can try again and claim Asylum, but he's made it a lot harder for himself, than had he come up with some bogus claim that he was being persecuted or trafficked.

This is why I continue and rightly refer to all adults in France (who entered without Visa or right) attempting to illegally cross to the UK as Illegal immigrants. Unless they have claimed Asylum they are in breach of French immigration law (not to mention maritime law etc.)

 

[motorbiking]

Most refugees would prefer to stay in their own country, but war or persecution has made them flee.

This idea they are lazy scroungers wanting to come here for economic gain is not really true


In terms of healthcare, most coming across the channel are young healthy men - I guarantee they don’t give a sh1t about healthcare.


There are those escaping poverty / lack of opportunity, like Albanians - they are indeed economic migrants.


An honest conversation would discuss both groups - not focus on one.

Why is it "dishonest" to focus on the problems? We have a lot of bogus Asylum claims, we have an industry of charities and professional law firms dedicated to helping people achieve successful claims. On top of that we have Traffickers advising people what to say as part of their "service".

Regarding your claim they are healthy. You have to remember that these countries have major public health problems: Hepatitis, tuberculosis, HIV etc. If they had desirable skills to be immediate assets to the UK, they could apply for a visa and come via the regular routes.

 

[Pat ex]

@Pat ex Have the UK rescue services ignored calls for help? Have the UK rescue services stood down ships in the location telling them they were sending rescue when they weren't. These are the allegations faced. Also there is no equivalent duty to help/rescue law in the UK.

Allegations....
Is there any comparative investigation taking place in UK?

Bingo - if you do not hold citizenship, residency etc, a visa or have a right to enter that country - you are there illegally.
For the avoidance of doubt:
- If you enter a country (in this case France) without the lawful authority to do so, you break various Immigration Laws. The treaty you refer to is enacted in (French) law. A State must excuse reasonable breaches of immigration law committed by someone seeking Asylum. These are referred to as Defences based on Article 31(1) of the Refugee Convention.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'll repeat the earlier quote:

There is nothing in international law to say that refugees must claim asylum in the first country they reach.

The truth about asylum

You can rely on our facts and figures to get the true picture about the situation—and help spread the truth about asylum.

www.refugeecouncil.org.uk

You then quote that reasonable breaches of immigration law must be excused for those seeking asylum, not claiming, "seeking"
Put the two together and you've proven my point, asylum seekers are not illegal by default.

In the UK its here:

Immigration and Asylum Act 1999

An Act to make provision about immigration and asylum; to make provision about procedures in connection with marriage on superintendent registrar’s certificate; and for connected purposes.

www.legislation.gov.uk

UK law is not applicable to your claims that asylum seekers are illegally in France.

If you do not seek Asylum you are not excused for your breach of immigration law.

What part of "you do not need to seek asylum in any specific country" do you not get?
Reasonable breaches for asylum seekers are excusable. For asylum seekers, not claimants.
Paragraph 2 specifies that no restriction should be placed on asylum seekers. See bottom of post.

This is why the "honest Albanian" I posted about earlier was immediately deported and banned from entering the UK (and therefore by default many other countries) for 3 years. He can try again and claim Asylum, but he's made it a lot harder for himself, than had he come up with some bogus claim that he was being persecuted or trafficked.

That case proved several issues:
UK does not respect honesty.
The economic migrant could raise the money for his passage, but not for his father's medical treatment.
He chose to spend the money he raised on his passage, rather than on his father's medical treatment.
He could not find work in Albania to fund his father's medical treatment, so UK decided to send him back when we have a labour shortage.
He came to UK to find work, evidently the visa for work scheme did not apply.

I think you should consider that the story told us more about the failures of the system than its successes.

This is why I continue and rightly refer to all adults in France attempting to illegally cross to the UK as Illegal migrants. Unless they have claimed Asylum they are in breach of French immigration law (not to mention maritime law etc.)

Your reference to minor breaches being excusable for asylum seekers, (A State must excuse reasonable breaches of immigration law committed by someone seeking Asylum*) along with the UNHCR statement, makes a mockery of your statement.
Your statement is based on your prejudice, and little else.

* Paragraph 2 of that Article
2. The Contracting States shall not apply to the movements of such refugees restrictions other than those which are necessary and such restrictions shall only be applied until their status in the country is regularized or they obtain admission into another country. The Contracting States shall allow such refugees a reasonable period and all the necessary facilities to obtain admission into another country.

 

[motorbiking]

No its based on my Legal expertise. Go study law as I did, rather than interpreting things without any knowledge.

An Asylum seeker is a person who has presented themselves to the authorities in accordance with the convention and local laws, in order to seek asylum. Until that point they are likely to be an illegal immigrant if they broke immigration law to get where they currently reside.

One last time.

1. Article 31 of the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees provides as follows:
   1. The Contracting States shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees who, coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened in the sense of Article 1, enter or are present in their territory without authorization, provided they present themselves without delay to the authorities and show good cause for their illegal entry or presence.

No point in looking at paragraph 2 if you aren't in the protected category under paragraph 1.