Is it acceptable to connect a radial to a spur via a 13A plug?

[plugwash]

True, but that's equally true whether the other end of the cable is connected to an FCU or a plug.

A FCU can't be unplugged and yanked on, a plug can.

Also flex is less good about "staying where you put it" than T&E is, and this is exacerbated by the fact that clips may be a loose fit.

However, it's not necessarily totally easy to get T+E into a BS1363 plug.

It does require some technique, at the scales of a 13A plug, a 2.5mm² solid conductor is more like a rod than a wire. My usual technique is to remove the terminals from the plug, form and terminate the conductors outside the plug, and then drop them back in.

Cheap plugs are actually easier because the pins/terminals usually just slide/fall out, while fancier plugs often have them restrained in the plug base.

Is that really true? Is there not, in fact, an argument that stranded conductors are preferable to solid ones in screwed terminals?

There is a big difference between "stranded" conductors and "fine stranded" conductors. The former are fine, the latter can be a bit unruly, finding their way up the sides of screws, or worse finding their way out of the terminal completely.

BS7671 is rather vague on this, merely talking about "suitable terminals" and "suitable preparation" but not rigidly defining what either of those things are.

 

[JohnW2]

I think we're probably quibbling about minor issues which we have agreed "are not show stoppers".

A FCU can't be unplugged and yanked on, a plug can.

If the cable is clipped to the surface of a wall/whatever, I don't think that's much more true of a plug than of an FCU, is it?

Also flex is less good about "staying where you put it" than T&E is, and this is exacerbated by the fact that clips may be a loose fit.

Again, if the cable is clipped to the surface of a wall/whatever, I think that some barrels are being scraped here, aren't they?

It does require some technique, at the scales of a 13A plug, a 2.5mm² solid conductor is more like a rod than a wire. My usual technique is to remove the terminals from the plug, form and terminate the conductors outside the plug, and then drop them back in.

Same here, but it's certainly possible (with 2.5mm² or smaller T+E).

Cheap plugs are actually easier because the pins/terminals usually just slide/fall out, while fancier plugs often have them restrained in the plug base.

Agreed.

There is a big difference between "stranded" conductors and "fine stranded" conductors. The former are fine, the latter can be a bit unruly, finding their way up the sides of screws, or worse finding their way out of the terminal completely.

I don't disagree with that, but in what way are you suggesting/implying that the terminals of an FCU differ from those of a socket?

BS7671 is rather vague on this, merely talking about "suitable terminals" and "suitable preparation" but not rigidly defining what either of those things are.

True, but probably 'understandable', given that a comprehensive definition of "suitable terminals" would probably be next-to-impossible. As you have observed, spring-loaded terminals might well be the ideal solution.

 

[plugwash]

If the cable is clipped to the surface of a wall/whatever, I don't think that's much more true of a plug than of an FCU, is it?

It's all very situationally dependent. I think it's easy to get into a situation with a short run of flex from a plug to a socket, where the clips hold the cable in place, but do not provide adequate resistance against the cable getting yanked.

Much less likely with a FCU, because you don't have the yank-prone loop of cable from the last clip to the plug.

 

[JohnW2]

It's all very situationally dependent. I think it's easy to get into a situation with a short run of flex from a plug to a socket, where the clips hold the cable in place, but do not provide adequate resistance against the cable getting yanked.

I can't disagree, but I do think that barrels are being scraped - that 'yank risk' surely exists with almost anything plugged into a socket - and, in fact, probably a much lower risk when (very unusual for 'plugged in' things) most of the cable is clipped to a wall?

Much less likely with a FCU, because you don't have the yank-prone loop of cable from the last clip to the plug.

The same 'barrel'
If the output from the FCU is a cable exiting through the faceplate and then clipped to a wall, there'll be at least a bit of a 'loop', allbeit pretty close to the wall.

 

[robinbanks]

that all begs the question

‘Tis a great shame (IMO) this interesting phrase is mutating into a paraphrase of “raises the question”..

I have had one fail with the individual socket fronts breaking free of the body. Granted I abused the thing

Hopefully you fed back to the manufacturer?! Sounds like something they should look to address with a product revision, as (if I understand your claim correctly) it’s conceivable a 3 pin plug could apply the same torque if pulled as a euro plug would, potentially causing the same fail?

I wasn’t particularly recommending that one, it was just the first reasonable brand from a reputable supplier that I found amid the wash of tosh from Amazon

 

[JohnW2]

‘Tis a great shame (IMO) this interesting phrase is mutating into a paraphrase of “raises the question”..

Interesting comment. I would not have thought that there has been any 'mutation' in remotely recent times. My memory may be failing me (it often does these days!) but I have say that I would have thought that the phrase "begs the question" has been in widespread common usage throughout most, if not all, of the very many decades of my life to date.

As for your suggested alternative, in what sense do you think that a question can be "raised" - does one have to attach it to a hot air balloon, add some yeast or what ?

The English language, particularly as it is 'commonly used', can be pretty intriguing. illogical, irrational and inconsistent, but maybe that's why many of us 'love' it so much? !

 

[Murdochcat]

As we have seen, that's somewhat open to debate. If that were always true, it would presumably open up the possibility of all sorts of loopholes which people might try to exploit in order to evade the Wiring Regs

In any event, I think the scope for 'debate' is probably considerably reduced by this explicit statement in Approved Document P, which presumably reflects the intent of the authors of BS7671 ...

So do all your extension leads comply with the regs?

An extension lead Is not part of the fixed wiring as it’s plugged in

 

[ebee]

An extension lead Is not part of the fixed wiring as it’s plugged in

Hah - an extension lead with a plugtop in connecting cables to a fixed lighting circuit (plastered into the wall) , is that lighting circuit fixed mains wiring and the fact it`s run from the extension lead then does this make it a part of the circuit that is not fixed mains wiring ???

It needs I & T right from the circuit origin at the consumer unit to the last lamp doesn`t it?

Plus "Click" Blue plugs and sockets thingys (other maes are available) are they not fixed mains wiring???

 

[pete01]

Plus "Click" Blue plugs and sockets thingys (other maes are available) are they not fixed mains wiring???

Well the plug is but the light plugged into it isnt, is it?

Oh I dunno.

 

[plugwash]

Hopefully you fed back to the manufacturer?!

No, perhaps I should have, but as I said I abused the thing.

Sounds like something they should look to address with a product revision, as (if I understand your claim correctly) it’s conceivable a 3 pin plug could apply the same torque if pulled as a euro plug would, potentially causing the same fail?

The problem with Europlugs in UK sockets (besides the lack of overcurrent protection, which is less of an issue in an extension lead) is they can get caught behind the socket face, exerting a significant force on it when pulled out.

 

[JohnW2]

An extension lead Is not part of the fixed wiring as it’s plugged in

As I wrote, if one takes that in a literal and 'blanket' sense, then it would open up some potentially massive loopholes - which I suspect is why the statement I quoted appears in Approved Doc P.

If one takes the statement literally, then in a non-domestic environment (not "a household", whatever that may be), everything in an electrical installation downstream of the metering could be supplied via a high-current plug/socket, meaning than none of the installation had to comply with BS7671. The same could be done in a domestic installation if one could find a shuttered high-current plug/socket.

 

[SUNRAY]

As I wrote, if one takes that in a literal and 'blanket' sense, then it would open up some potentially massive loopholes - which I suspect is why the statement I quoted appears in Approved Doc P.

If one takes the statement literally, then in a non-domestic environment (not "a household", whatever that may be), everything in an electrical installation downstream of the metering could be supplied via a high-current plug/socket, meaning than none of the installation had to comply with BS7671. The same could be done in a domestic installation if one could find a shuttered high-current plug/socket.

No. No. No.it doesn't need to be shuttered... according to another recent thread

 

[JohnW2]

No. No. No.it doesn't need to be shuttered... according to another recent thread

We often discuss this, but I don't recall a recent discussion which concluded as you imply. Nothing in BS7671 seems to allow even sockets with 'interlock' (without shutters) to be used in domestic ('household') situations. How does the conclusion get around:

553.1.201 Every socket-outlet for household and similar use shall be of the shuttered type and, for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a type complying with BS 1363.

The only 'exceptions' mentioned appear to be:

553.1.5 A plug and socket-outlet not complying with BS 1363, BS 546 or BS EN 60309-2, may be used in single-phase AC or two-wire DC circuits operating at a nominal voltage not exceeding 250 volts for:
(i) the connection of an electric clock, provided that the plug and socket-outlet are designed specifically for that purpose, and that each plug incorporates a fuse of rating not exceeding 3 amperes complying with BS 646 or BS 1362 as appropriate
(ii) the connection of an electric shaver, provided that the socket-outlet is either incorporated in a shaver supply unit complying with BS EN 61558-2-5 or is a type complying with BS 4573
(iii) a circuit having special characteristics such that danger would otherwise arise or it is necessary to distinguish the function of the circuit.

... (i)and (ii) are obviously not relevant to what I mentioned. Are you suggesting that one could argue that (iii) could be invoked if someone chose to supply an entire post-meter domestic installation via an unshuttered socket+plug?

 

[ebee]

Well the plug is but the light plugged into it isnt, is it?

Oh I dunno.

LOL yes me too

 

[SUNRAY]

We often discuss this, but I don't recall a recent discussion which concluded as you imply.

I pointed out that EV connectors are not shuttered and a resident expert defended them as interlocked

Nothing in BS7671 seems to allow even sockets with 'interlock' (without shutters) to be used in domestic ('household') situations. How does the conclusion get around:

The only 'exceptions' mentioned appear to be:

... (i)and (ii) are obviously not relevant to what I mentioned. Are you suggesting that one could argue that (iii) could be invoked if someone chose to supply an entire post-meter domestic installation via an unshuttered socket+plug?

I'm firmly of the opinion that anything 'fitted', regardless of the way it obtains power is or should be classed as part of the installation and fitting any sort of 'main socket' would be pointless, unless it's used for a specific reason such as generator inlet etc.