Is telephone wire for a socket Earth good?

[WhydidIstart]

Just doing some renovation work in an 1895 house and have found that the wiring isn't perhaps BS 7671:2008+A3:2015 compliant...



Renewing the ceiling and tidying up some old Victorian cast iron central heating piping that was in the loft (see below) and I thought I would remove some of the old turn of the century 'case and capping' wooden trunking wiring that was still up in the loft.





That was fine until I came across the point where it connected into the newer T&E and I realised it was still in use.




Out of interest, does anyone know if this casing and capping with what looks like individual cotton covered cables would have been installed in 1895 when the house was built, or would it have gone in slightly later around 1915ish perhaps?

 

[bhm1712]

The terminal blocks you have pictured are melting with heat.

With wiring in this state, with the errors I can see just from the photographs and a lack of further evidence then I would imagine the only safe route would be to rewire the property, especially if the cables you describe are still in use.

 

[JohnW2]

Good grief! ... what bhm1712 said! One would normally advise a full inspection of the electrical installation (EICR) as a starting point but, in this case, I'm not sure that there would be any point!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

As mentioned already that property needs a total re-wire,

But the question. provided the circuit is properly protected by an RCD then as telephone wire can carry 100 mA indefinately it could be used as an earth conductor between a socket and an effectively earthed MET

Only those silly BS7671 regulation would not be happy

DO NOT take that as serious. DO follow the BS 7671 requirement

 

[JohnW2]

But the question. provided the circuit is properly protected by an RCD then as telephone wire can carry 100 mA indefinately it could be used as an earth conductor between a socket and an effectively earthed MET Only those silly BS7671 regulation would not be happy DO NOT take that as serious. DO follow the BS 7671 requirement

BS7671 is not all that stupid in this respect! It may be that telephone wire can carry 100mA indefinitely, but are you confident that it would carry, say, 300A for long enough for an RCD (if there is one) to operate (before the wire melted)?!!!

Although I know better of you, it almost sounds as if you are invoking the 'common misconception' that an RCD somehow limits current (rather than duration) - if the fault is such that the fault current is 300A (or 500A, or whatever), that will obvioulsy be the magnitude of the fault current until (hopefully!) some protective device clears the fault!

Kind Regards, John

 

[chivers67]

Rip it out and start again... Carefully!

 

[WhydidIstart]

Lol, RCD!? Assuming that RCDs first got a mention in the 14th around 1966, parts of this installation (that are still in use!) pre-date that by circa 50 years! The last update to the main part of the house was probably in the 70s.

The DNO supply goes through the meter and is then split into 4; 1 feeds an old consumer unit (no RCDs, no split load and no labels), 2 supplies go to old Wylex switches with a single fuse holders that have been ‘upgraded’ to the old style push button MCBs and the final feed goes via another switch with a cartridge fuse and heads upstairs to another old consumer unit – again no RCDs or labels. There are no electric showers in the house.

bhm1712 – yes that terminal block is not in a good way… There are others that have lose connections as when you tap the wiring the lights flicker. Light switches have a single live feed from a single large red cable. Even stranger, I have found one live feed that is tee’d off from the light switch back box using a terminal block and then this extra live disappears back into the wall – separate from the live that then feeds the switch and lights. It seems most Neutrals are ‘borrowed’ even on lights that don’t have two or more way switching.



Has anyone seen these single solid core fat red wires before? They have the same diameter as 6A mains cable and I haven’t come across that before? They can be seen in these photos.

 

[ericmark]

Even worst than my sons house was. He started by fitting a new consumer unit supplying 4 sockets and whole house ran off extension leads from those 4 sockets while he rewired it. When it is that bad there is little alternative fish and chip shop meals until rewired.

You show pictures but really we still have no idea, my dad's house built 1954 had 5 sockets originally and when I came to look an electrician had used the Post Office earth from the old party line to earth the whole house. These stories about really poor wiring are not that unusual but as to when wired as said 1954 just 5 sockets my grandfathers house 1934 and that has two sockets things like smoothing iron were run from the lights.

Not sure what date power and lighting were combined originally two meters you paid less for lighting electric than power electric hence why so many adaptor to let you take power from lighting and so many court cases where people were caught doing it. By 1970 they were putting a reasonable number of sockets in a house. But from war to mid 1960's there were no where near enough sockets fitted so one has to expect to see DIY work fitting extras.

So real question is what are you doing about it.

 

[winston1]

Out of interest, does anyone know if this casing and capping with what looks like individual cotton covered cables would have been installed in 1895 when the house was built, or would it have gone in slightly later around 1915ish perhaps?

I doubt if electricity was installed in 1895.

 

[stillp]

Out of interest, does anyone know if this casing and capping with what looks like individual cotton covered cables would have been installed in 1895 when the house was built, or would it have gone in slightly later around 1915ish perhaps?

My grandparents' house used wooden casing, and I believe was first wired sometime between 1927 and 1939.

 

[ericmark]

Out of interest, does anyone know if this casing and capping with what looks like individual cotton covered cables would have been installed in 1895 when the house was built, or would it have gone in slightly later around 1915ish perhaps?

I doubt if electricity was installed in 1895.

The "General Rules recommended for Wiring for the Supply of Electrical Energy" or third edition came out in 1897 so it would have come under the second edition "Rules and Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks Arising from Electric Lighting" it would seem at that point no one considered use electric as power. But the Queensferry bridge

was also built 1897 to replace the original sliding roadway that had knife switches to raise the bridge and quite hefty motors so must have been some power around. Not a clue how the sliding bridge was powered just remember my grandmother telling me how there was around a 9 inch step where the sections did not meet correctly and they had to get off the bus and walk alongside it when crossing it.

 

[JohnD]

Renewing the ceiling and tidying up some old Victorian cast iron central heating piping that was in the loft

Iron pipes in the loft are common, but will have been for gas lighting. They might still be connected to gas fires and may still be live. Occasionally there are later wires poked down them.

 

[JohnW2]

My grandparents' house used wooden casing, and I believe was first wired sometime between 1927 and 1939.

My parents' last house was built in 1922 and still bore the evidence that the lighting was originally by gas - so presumably no electricity supply at the time.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

My inlaw's house had the lead piping for gas lighting still in place in the 1970's. But she wouldn't have gas in the house. Far too dangerous.

All the water plumbing was lead as well.

 

[JohnW2]

My inlaw's house had the lead piping for gas lighting still in place in the 1970's.

The remants of the gas lighting were still present when my parents' house was sold in the late 80s.

But she wouldn't have gas in the house. Far too dangerous.

Right up until her death (in 1989) my grandmother refused to touch 'anything electric' - and that included not being prepared to turn lights, or the TV, on/off - but she happily carried on using her 'gas iron'! Mind you, she also would have nothing to do with lifts, escalators or aircraft, and took a lot of persuading to get in a car!

Kind Regards, John