Is the "Smart" meter role out being done ready for another Winter of discontent.

[Harry Bloomfield]

OK I know Freddy Boswell look alike is just a daft advert, and we will not turn lights on and off by clapping hands, but really can't see how smart meters help the consumer? Will find out soon, was to be completed by 2022 so not long left before they force me to have one fitted.

Just them trying to show them to be useful and friendly.

My father-in-law had one, and we tried to get it so we could seen what was going on, as to see 3 kW used for 3 minutes likely means he is making a cup of coffee so is OK, but the attempt failed, we never were able to monitor his use of electric.

They were never designed to show such resolution or even instantaneous data back to the supplier, they are only able to send the supplier data points for every 30 minutes and sent as a batch, once per day. You can now get a gadget which can replace the IHD, with one which is more capable, but stupidly it lacks the ability to connect to your home LAN.

 

[ericmark]

They were never designed to show such resolution or even instantaneous data back to the supplier, they are only able to send the supplier data points for every 30 minutes and sent as a batch, once per day. You can now get a gadget which can replace the IHD, with one which is more capable, but stupidly it lacks the ability to connect to your home LAN.

So not a very smart meter then!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

So not a very smart meter then!

Smart enough to do the job they were originally designed to do, automating the sending in of meter readings - but terribly badly implemented, it has become a circus, due to the poorly thought out initial spec... No one thought to design for people changing suppliers, or wanting to tap into the data on the LAN.

 

[charliegolf]

No one thought to design for people changing suppliers, or wanting to tap into the data on the LAN.

I can send readings and monitor my own useage, so don't want one. Whenever the bother me, I just say that I'm planning to dump them shortly, and theirs won't work for the next lot. Come back when they are all the same and don't require a socket.

 

[ericmark]

To be "smart" I would think means it uses some algorithms to work some thing out and acts on that information, so a smart thermostat works out how long it takes to heat the room, and auto adjusts when it switches on so it has reached the temperature set by the time set.

Telemetry does not make anything smart, many years ago Scottish power sent us some socket adaptors, a wireless current transformer, a display, and a LAN module which told them and us how much power we were using and had used, so the bill was adjusted to approximate what it should be, and corrected once a year, this was less than £10 out.

So some thing called "Smart" clearly does more. It can turn off the supply, why would I want that? and one would hope it could be set to tell other devices when the power is cheap so things like immersion heaters and EV charging points can use power on the cheap rate, other wise they are rather useless.

In other words a bit like economy 7 but more flexible. Since I don't use an immersion heater, and I don't have an electric car, for me no real point.

 

[JohnW2]

They were never designed to show such resolution or even instantaneous data back to the supplier, they are only able to send the supplier data points for every 30 minutes and sent as a batch, once per day.

Indeed. However, they do actual monitor, and display locally, instantaneous usage. As you go on to say ...

You can now get a gadget which can replace the IHD, with one which is more capable, but stupidly it lacks the ability to connect to your home LAN.

Quite. Ability to connect to a LAN, or even just a USB interface, would enable one to do whatever one wanted with instantaneous data.

My own monitoring system has a 'web-based' interface, which means that I could view my installation's instantons usage, in real time, from anywhere in the world. Given that my usual background total consumption is typically around 500 W, I could very easily tell ('from Tokyo") if someone had switched on a 3 kW kettle in my house!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Indeed. However, they do actual monitor, and display locally, instantaneous usage. As you go on to say ...

Only the instantaneous data displayed as a meter would, but with no means to store or record that data.

The best stored resolution, is the 30 minute consumption data sent to your supplier, once per day - if you are allowed to request such high resolution.

 

[ericmark]

This cost £40 and needs no electrical connection, and will show me on my PC, tablet or phone what I am using in real time, OK it does not show power factor, or compensate for voltage variations, so it is not accurate enough to use as a DNO meter. But if I really want a whole house report it will do it.

I find these work better for me, I can see if freezer using too much, or car battery charged, or my beer brewing is turning on/off so must be warm enough, to my mind I can measure whole house usage these will do that, but how does it help me? Even plotted against time unless I can use the information in some way, it's useless. Yes when I first got meters I was testing all sorts, but it soon wore off, so I can look and see the thermostat for my home brew is switching on/off so brew is warm enough, I have noted it was heating most of the time, so nipped down and put a body warmer over the fermentor, but with so many things switching on/off having a meter for whole of house would not help me one little bit.

 

[JohnW2]

Only the instantaneous data displayed as a meter would, but with no means to store or record that data. The best stored resolution, is the 30 minute consumption data sent to your supplier, once per day - if you are allowed to request such high resolution.

Indeed - and I thought that I acknowledged all that - and I also agreed with you that it would be much more useful (for us) if (like my own monitoring system), they provided an interface (e.g. LAN, USB or 'web') which enabled one to make use of (and process how one liked) the instantaneous data.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

to my mind I can measure whole house usage these will do that, but how does it help me? Even plotted against time unless I can use the information in some way, it's useless. Yes when I first got meters I was testing all sorts, but it soon wore off, so I can look and see the thermostat for my home brew is switching on/off so brew is warm enough, I have noted it was heating most of the time, so nipped down and put a body warmer over the fermentor, but with so many things switching on/off having a meter for whole of house would not help me one little bit.

None of which helps with monitoring the much bigger winter bill for some, which is the gas consumption. The Smart meter IHD does at least do that - Which is presently indicating a cost of 8p per hour. I have just lit the one 'bar' on full, to warm the living room, so 8p suggests slightly over 1Kw. Once warmed up, I will drop that 'bar' down to minimum, to see what that uses.

[EDIT] Now on minimum and showing 4.25p per hour. The spec. suggests one 'bar' on full is around 1Kw, so 4.25p suggests minimum is a little over 500w, and the 500w is adequate with the outdoor at 14.9C. I wonder how that compare to heating the whole house via the boiler?

Making use of the previously unused living room gas fire is my new regime, to conserve gas, as an alternative to heating the whole house. Despite my giving it a good clean out and check before using it, it was quite smelly when I first began using it - oils used in the manufacture burning off. I just need to get used to the idea of controlling it's temperature manually and turning it off before going to bed.

 

[SimonH2]

In terms of your point, I don't think it's quite as bad as you suggest, since an appreciable proportion of locally-generated power will not 'go back to the transformer' (and hence into the HV network), creating a 'negative VD' on its way, but, rather, will go to those consumers in the local LV network who do not have their own generation - and ('on average') something like half of that proportion will travel 'downstream', not 'upstream', and hence will result in VD 'in the same direction' as that deriving from grid-supplied power.

True, but either way, every amp supplied by embedded generation is not coming from central generation. Whether power flows do ever reverse or not (I would be very surprised if they don't in some parts of the network at some times), the end effect is a reduction in voltage drop in the local distribution network which will be proportional to the amount of embedded generation.
I would think the worst case is going to be a bright sunny day, where several houses have 4kW of PV installed, and most people are out at work* and so load is minimal.
* Yeah, I know. But even when working at home, the load is generally only a few hundred W so a few 4kW PV installs will easily reverse the power flow for possibly a whole street.

 

[JohnW2]

True, but either way, every amp supplied by embedded generation is not coming from central generation. Whether power flows do ever reverse or not (I would be very surprised if they don't in some parts of the network at some times), the end effect is a reduction in voltage drop in the local distribution network which will be proportional to the amount of embedded generation.

As I said, the considerations I mentioned only reduced (not eliminated) export from an LV network - so, yes, there probably will be times when the net export becomes positive in some places.

However, as I said before, this was not the context of my comment - since I was responding to a suggestion that the National Grid could not cope with a lot of micro-generation, rather than that (as you are talking about) microgeneration might impair the ability to supply all customers with electricity within the 'permitted' voltage range.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

which is the gas consumption

I wish I could monitor oil consumption, I clearly realise when the boiler is running it is using oil, and since it does not modulate that can be worked out by the run time, which my Nest Gen 3 thermostat records for me.

However in mothers house with gas, the boiler modulates, and there was nothing on the boiler to say running at 6 kW or 26 kW so simple time running does not help, you need a minute by minute read out showing the gas being used, one they would not fit a gas smart meter unless I also had an electric one fitted, and two it seems even when fitted it does not show minute by minute use, so rather pointless.

Smart meter or no smart meter we all know the warmer the home the more it costs, and the more rooms heated the more it costs, and to keep costs down we only heat rooms in use, and only just enough, what would help is to know how much it costs to heat each room, so I can make a informed decision, should I use the dinning room, should I even use the living room or stay in my bedroom. If I raise the living room temperature by 2°C how much will it cost me. Same goes for all other rooms in the home, I am sure if I don't use the upper two floors in my home in the winter it will save me money, I could limit myself to live in just 4 rooms of the house, but no Smart meter is going to tell me how much that will save, I could heat each room in turn with an electric heater, and work out at a set outside temperature what each room needs to heat it, and I could use a plug in energy monitor to work that out, but a Smart meter is simply to general to be of any use.

Have you ever tried to work out what it costs to wash cloths? I have, and gave up. Each time I put on the washer it would weigh the load and adjust the wash cycle, so using same program 10 times with a full load of washing will give 10 different results. So working out if you will save anything by using a different program is impossible.

Same with dish washer, shorter program does not always mean cheaper, if any items need washing twice, then you have used more water and more detergent as well as more power, we just have to trust the designers got it right, and follow the instructions.

But if even with one item with a energy meter I can't work out which is best cycle, what chance is there with many items running together, answer is simple, non, for the consumer the Smart meter is a complete waste. It may help the supplier or billing agent, but not the user.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

However in mothers house with gas, the boiler modulates, and there was nothing on the boiler to say running at 6 kW or 26 kW so simple time running does not help, you need a minute by minute read out showing the gas being used, one they would not fit a gas smart meter unless I also had an electric one fitted, and two it seems even when fitted it does not show minute by minute use, so rather pointless.

I do have that, on the IHD, I used it just yesterday evening to see what my 'newly discovered' living room fire consumed. Though my Vaillant can modulate it's output, so far as I know, it gives no indication of the level of it's modulation, but I can get a bit of a clue as to how hard it is working by the amount of noise it creates if I open its cupboard door, or checking the IHD.

The IHD is not instantly updated, maybe once every 10 minutes, but good enough and it shows each days total use.

 

[ericmark]

They refused to fit a gas smart meter, so want not an option.