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Is this okay. Extractor Fan and Electric Shower

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by Raji, 12 Mar 2013.

  1. Raji

    Raji

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    Hello

    Is it okay for my builder (not a qualified electrician but knowledgeable) to run these wires from the end points whilst other work is being done in readiness for a qualified electrician to make the end connections. The builder will fix an isolation switch for the extractor and shower aswell. The builder will make sure the correct wire is used

    Cheers
    Raj
     
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  3. ricicle

    ricicle

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    No. The electrician must carry out/oversee all aspects of the work.
     
  4. securespark

    securespark

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    Who is signing off the electrical work?
     
  5. OwainDIYer

    OwainDIYer

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    Yes, provided he/you* makes an application under Part P of the Building Regulations to the local council.

    *it's your responsibility, not his, to ensure that a Building Regs application is made for any notifiable work.
     
  6. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    No it isn't - it is the responsibility of the person carrying out the work - that's what it says in the Building Regulations.

    And it is the builder who is carrying out the work, not Raji.
     
  7. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permission/responsibilities/buildingregulations/

    So a joint responsibility on tradesman AND owner.

    The owner needs to ensure application has been made and the tradesman need to ensure the work is dome properly.
     
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  9. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    If someone employs a builder it is because he is unwilling or unable to do the work himself, therefore he pays a professional to do it.

    For that, he is entitled to receive a competent and lawful service from the professional, which naturally includes compliance with any applicable legislation. It is the professional's responsibility to ensure that he complies, and to advise his client on anything the client needs to do. Which may include applying for planning permission, party wall agreements - all manner of things. It is the professional who has the duty of care to the client, not the other way around, and whilst the client may, and frequently does, apply for Building Regulations approval, if he does not then ultimately it is the professional's responsibility to either get him to agree to do it or to do it himself.

    Whilst, as owner of the building, it could well be the client who faces enforcement actions for any contraventions, it really is quite clear that, just as if it was originally the builder's job to make sure the walls didn't fall down, it was also his job to ensure that permission was applied for.

    It is quite instructive to get a copy of the Building Regulations, look for occurrences of the term "person carrying out the work" (and variations) and to try substituting "householder" or "homeowner" etc, and seeing what nonsense then results.
     
  10. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    It is even more instructive to have actually self built a house where no tradespeople were employed at the beginning to make the application. The building regulations DO cater for the owner doing ALL the work without ANY tradespeople being involved.

    It is the OWNERS responsibilty to ensure application has been made.
     
  11. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I would agree with bernardgreen as if the LABC decide it has to be done again it is the owner who has to pay then try and get it back off the builder.

    I have said many times the LABC do not issue permits to work. So if the owner tells the electrician I have paid the LABC their fee then really he has to take his word for it.

    As to the question I note there are changes where now it states "An electrical installation condition report" rather than an Installation Certificate so in that case then yes under Part P likely the builder can install the cable but under BS7671 he can't.

    I would say it really is down to who is issuing the completion certificate. If the electrician since the third party signing has not yet been cleared with the scheme providers then no. If the LABC then likely yes, but I would ask the LABC first.
     
  12. SimonH2

    SimonH2

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    But if you self build, you become the "person carrying out the work" so the distinction becomes moot.

    Can't comment on any others, but my LABC send out paperwork when you submit an application. Can't be bothered digging it out now, but from memory there's some sort of form setting out a summary of the work, plus some slips of paper to send in at the appropriate stages. If nothing else, I'd expect to see a receipt.
     
  13. ban-all-sheds

    ban-all-sheds

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    Of course they do - and in that case the person carrying out the work is the owner.


    Building Regulations Explanatory Document, Para 2.4

    "The primary responsibility for achieving compliance with the
    regulations rests with the person carrying out the building work.
    So if you are carrying out the work personally the responsibility
    will be yours. If you are employing a builder the responsibility
    will usually be that firm's
    "

    Notification is a requirement of the regulations.

    How about some extracts from the Building Regulations? (from an older version, but the principle still applies).

    15 (2) [Subject to paragraph (8), a person] carrying out building work shall not:
    (a) cover up any excavation for a foundation, any foundation, any
    damp-proof course or any concrete or other material laid over a
    site; or
    (b) cover up in any way any drain or sewer to which these Regulations
    apply, unless he has given the local authority notice that he
    intends to commence that work, and at least one day has elapsed
    since the end of the day on which he gave the notice.


    Why would they have that requirement if the meaning of the term "person carrying out building work" was "person who commissioned building work to be carried out by someone else"? Big problem with householders employing builders and then covering up foundations and drains is there?


    16 (2) Where this regulation applies, the person carrying out the building work
    shall calculate the energy rating of the dwelling by means of a procedure
    approved by the Secretary of State and give notice of that rating to the
    local authority.


    Poor old householder has got to learn an awful lot of stuff these days before he can get the builders in, it seems..


    16A Provisions applicable to self certification schemes

    (1) This regulation applies to the extent that the building work consists only
    of work of a type described in column 1 of the Table in Schedule 2A and
    the work is carried out by a person who is described in the corresponding
    entry in column 2 of that Table in respect of that type of work.

    (2) Where this regulation applies, the local authority is authorised to accept,
    as evidence that the requirements of regulations 4 and 7 have been
    satisfied, a certificate to that effect by the person carrying out the
    building work.


    So, if you think that wherever the Building Regulations say "person carrying out the work" they really mean "householder or other person ordering the work", this bit of the regs must mean that it is the householder who has to be a member of CORGI/OFTAPI/HETAS/FENSA/NICEIC/NAPIT/UTCAA as appropriate. Blimey - years of study required before you can have an extension built then, if every reference in the Building Regulations to "person carrying out building work" refers to the householder and not his builder.
     
  14. ericmark

    ericmark

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    When I in Flintshire notified the building control the only paper work I received was the completion certificate at the end.

    I spoke to the inspectors before I took over the job and he informed me the builder who had been doing the work had failed to inform him and impressed on my that it was the owner who should have informed them. When the builder does it he is doing the owner a favour.

    He said since the electrician who had started the work had said he was a scheme member technically he had broken the law but since we did not have any paper work to show he said he was a scheme member they would not be taking it any further.

    The builder stopped trading after this may have been due to pressure from the building control but we were not given any information about what steps the council took.

    As I said I had expected a permit to work. But nothing just a verbal go ahead.
     
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