Justified?

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Israel and its allies have insisted the bombings are justified because it has the right to self-defence in response to the October 7 Hamas attacks that killed 1,200 people and injured more than 5,600 in southern Israel. According to Article 51 of the UN Charter, until the UN Security Council takes measures to maintain international peace and security, “nothing in the charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a member of the United Nations.”

Many experts aren’t convinced that it does apply. The attack Israel faced on October 7 came from an armed group in a territory, Gaza, that Israel has effectively controlled. “Israel does not claim it has been threatened by another state. It has been threatened by an armed group within an occupied territory. It cannot claim the right of self-defence against a threat that emanates from a territory it occupies, from a territory kept under belligerent occupation,” Albanese said.

Armed conflicts are governed by international humanitarian law (IHL), a set of rules contained in international agreements like the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 as well as other agreements and conventions meant to ensure that all member nations subscribe to a list of fundamental rules during conflicts. In the current conflict, though, experts said Israel’s actions seem to violate all of the four main principles of IHL: distinction between civilians and combatants, proportionality between anticipated loss of civilian life and damage and the strategic military advantage of an attack, legitimate military purposes and the humane treatment of all individuals from civilians to detainees and hostages.

Yet Israel has been unrelenting in these attacks despite facing heavy criticism. Experts have pointed to how it has relied on the claim, backed by the US and EU, that Hamas is using civilians in these places as 'human shields'. “The claim that civilians are being used as human shields does not absolve a party from its obligations under IHL. Even if combatants are present, attacks must still adhere to the principles of distinction and proportionality,” Overton said, pointing to how UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres called Gaza a “graveyard for children” on November 7.

At least three Palestinian rights groups have filed a lawsuit with the International Criminal Court (ICC) against Israel during the ongoing war. And this week, French lawyer Gilles Devers submitted a complaint to the prosecutor at the ICC on behalf of Gaza victims. A US-based civil rights group, the Center for Constitutional Rights, has also sued Biden and senior members of his cabinet for “complicity” in the “unfolding genocide”.

Al Jazeera.com
 
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“The right to self defence” seems to be a handy slogan for politicians to trot out
 
I did mention this about a month ago, shortly after Israel started bombing Gaza. (Then I've been locked out of such threads :rolleyes:)
It's not a war against another state because Israel militarily occupies Gaza. It's an Israeli internal affair with an armed insurrection group in a military occupied territory, where the normal 'civilian' rules of captured civilians and fighters should apply.
It is required that the occupier applies civilian rule to an occupied territory.

From the perpsective of Hamas, they are resisiting that military occupation to free their 'territory'.
Neither perpective justifies the wanton or indiscriminate killing of civilians, they are crimes.
In the case of Hamas, they're crimes within a civil society, and should have been treated as such.
The bombing of schools, hospitals, refugee camps, UN personel, etc are IMO, undoubtedly intentional war crimes, albeit, conducted outside of a war.
But that type of behaviour in a military occupied territory would be classified within the "war crimes" environment.


Now the acccusations of anti-Semitism will begin all over again. :rolleyes:
 
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From the perpsective of Hamas, they are resisiting that military occupation to free their 'territory'.
Neither perpective justifies the wanton or indiscriminate killing of civilians, they are crimes.
In the case of Hamas, they're crimes within a civil society, and should have been treated as such.
The bombing of schools, hospitals, refugee camps, UN personel, etc are IMO, undoubtedly intentional war crimes, albeit, conducted outside of a war.
But that type of behaviour in a military occupied territory would be classified within the "war crimes" environment.


Now the acccusations of anti-Semitism will begin all over again. :rolleyes:
Israel has unsuccessfully tried to conflate criticism of them with Anti-Semitism for a long while now. I expect a good deal of it is still to come when it justifies the rampage through Gaza. Finding weapons next to n MRI scanner is just unbelievable and a couple of cans of WD40 near a tunnel do not a command center make.
Doctors say they were told to leave Al-Shifa hospital and IDF officials deny it - who to believe?
 
Israel has unsuccessfully tried to conflate criticism of them with Anti-Semitism for a long while now. I expect a good deal of it is still to come when it justifies the rampage through Gaza. Finding weapons next to n MRI scanner is just unbelievable and a couple of cans of WD40 near a tunnel do not a command center make.
Doctors say they were told to leave Al-Shifa hospital and IDF officials deny it - who to believe?
I don't agree........ with this bit
Israel has unsuccessfully tried to conflate criticism of them with Anti-Semitism
It's been a call from many quarters, and it has been successful to 're-educate' the uneducated.
There's been much criticism of the Israeli government, and Zionism, that's been disimissed as anti-Semitism.

Many Jews, world-wide, object to the current Israeli government policy. They're not anti-Semitic.
Very few of them agree with the Zionist objectives.
 
That's like calling criticism of Tory policies as 'Anti-British' sentiment.
An absurd position to take - by any government.
 
Television footage published by BBC and Fox News reporters, embedded with the Israeli army in Gaza, reveal further inconsistencies, documenting how the scene at the hospital was apparently altered.

When will Israeli Army explain inconsistencies in Al-Shifa videos?

The BBC’s own fact-checking analysis also highlighted that its reporter was only allowed into the scene a few hours after the Israeli army recorded its video – as was evident from the time on the Israeli army’s spokesman’s wristwatch.
 
That's like calling criticism of Tory policies as 'Anti-British' sentiment.
An absurd position to take - by any government.
Agreed, but it is done, by many, not just the Israeli government, but also allies of Israel.
And certainly by civilian supporters.
 
Mind you, Hamas will be justified with its attack if they get Netanyahu in jail for his war crimes after the dust settles on Gaza:

A survey published Thursday found that the Benjamin Netanyahu-led coalition that won 64 seats in the November 2022 elections would crash to just 45 seats in the 120-strong Knesset were elections held today.

The survey was conducted Wednesday among 502 respondents by pollster Mano Geva and Midgam, and had a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points.


The Times of Israel
 
Mind you, Hamas will be justified with its attack if they get Netanyahu in jail for his war crimes after the dust settles on Gaza:

A survey published Thursday found that the Benjamin Netanyahu-led coalition that won 64 seats in the November 2022 elections would crash to just 45 seats in the 120-strong Knesset were elections held today.

The survey was conducted Wednesday among 502 respondents by pollster Mano Geva and Midgam, and had a margin of error of 4.4 percentage points.


The Times of Israel
Netanyahu is only the leader of his party, there are others ready to step into his shoes, should the party retain its support, and the government is currently a coalition of rght wing parties.
He has been PM for about 16 years. Israel has had a right wing government since about 1975.
So while Netanyahu might be out of favour, there'll most likely still be a right wing government.
 
It used not to be difficult to support both peoples who live in Israel and the Palestinian territories, as I did, by distinguishing their needs and aspirations from those of their leaders. But the rise to power of former rightwing terrorists Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir to the highest office in Israel was where a supremacist philosophy began to take hold in the politics of Israeli Jews. It appealed, as far-right politics always do, to those who felt let down or ignored by their governments, as Mizrahi Jews (of Middle Eastern or north African heritage) and more religious Jews did by the secular Ashkenazi (European) Israeli Labor Party establishment.

There is no military solution to this conflict. But 7 million Jews and 7 million Palestinians are not going to go away. They need leaders who will work for peace, and bring Palestinians and Israelis together. There can be no role for those who want perpetual war.

Jon Lansman@the Guardian

Kick out the JAMS, motherfuckers, and get on the bus.
 
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