Kitchen Downlight Advice Needed (Spacing & Brightness)

[Mav3000]

We have recently finished installing a new bathroom above the kitchen, so taking the above floor out is not an option. It is a tiled floor on 25mm WBP plywood. The sound isn't so much people walking about, but the sound of things entering the w/c with velocity! (tried to be as diplimatic as I could here).

I think plasterboard surrounds for the downlights would help, but can't picture how I would fit them once the ceiling was up with no top-down access to above them, unless they were fitted to the ceiling before it was lifted into place, with cabling for the lights chased through before the lights were installed.

I think we may have to put up with the noise, although not ideal now kitchen has now been opened up to the dining room too!

PS Advice on various bulb types - LED, CFL etc all welcomed. Don't know too much about CFL bulbs or LEDs in regards to performance.

PPS thanks Liam - will look into Rockwool stuff. I take it it is not flammable and happy to sit near acoustic rated / fire rated downlights?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Nice ideas by flameport, sounds like you've built acoustically isolated studios before. Perhaps a little bit complicated for a domestic job.

What about 50mm kingspan direct to joists, then board over? your 2.3m ceiling would cater for this

Remember to consider the position of the joists before finalising your lighting plan, also give some attention to the area under the bathroom as you may have pipes to contend with there.



Using enamel paint, place a small mark on the inside of the toilet bowl, about 1/2" above the water line, those who point to pee will not be able to resist.
Or alternatively, couldn't you just practice sphincter muscle control to create more pointy plops, which would silently slip away like a hunting crocodile rather than going in like a WW2 depth charge trying to sink u-boats

 

[Mav3000]

Mik, excellent ideas which I am happy to practice, but offering guidance or maybe a 'how to guide' for guests may not go down to well, and more seriously may lend them to suggest shoddy DIY which didn't pre-emtively problem.

I'm looking at Rockwool and see you can buy sheets on eBay. The Rockwool site says cover downlights in fire covers, or leave a gap above them. Would stuffing some of this into the ceiling around the lights help?

I've seen 'RW3' and 'RW4' but don't know the difference between them at this stage of research.

 

[flameport]

The sound isn't so much people walking about, but the sound of things entering the w/c with velocity!

That is probably higher frequency sound which is likely to be coming through a hole or gap somewhere. If there are any gaps around pipes etc., seal them up.
To assist with locating where the sound is coming through, get a hosepipe and jam it under the toilet lid so that it trickles directly into the water. Then go downstairs and see where the noise is loudest.

Boxes around the lights will be very difficult as no access from above, they really need to be sealed to the back of the ceiling for best effect.
Make sure the lights are enclosed at the back (those linked to earlier seem to be), or ones like this:
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/72064/
(you can fit the CFL and LED lamps in those)

Lamp types are basically:
Halogen - switch on instantly, use vast amounts of energy, get very hot and don't last long.

CFL - last 10x longer, use 80% less energy. Don't get anywhere near as hot, although some space for ventilation is needed. Take up to a minute to reach full brightness, so no good if switched often.
Some examples:
http://www.nationallampsandcomponen...gy-Saving-Light-Bulbs/Megaman-CFL-GU10/34/278

LED - instant on (even faster than halogen), use even less energy than CFLs, practially cold in operation. Lasts for ever. Available in any colour you want, even ones that change colour. Decent ones are very expensive. Cheap ones are useless. Some examples:
http://www.nationallampsandcomponents.co.uk/ssc.php/Led-Lighting/Philips-MASTER-LED-Lamps/29/426

 

[ColJack]

get european style toilets.. they have a "shelf" that the waste goes onto, so no splashing sound...

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

get european style toilets.. they have a "shelf" that the waste goes onto, so no splashing sound...

and a great big extractor fan, those euro toilets allow some eye-watering smells to drift upwards

proud though i am of some of my creations, i don't like it when they stare back up at me.

 

[Mav3000]

After doing more research last night I am fairly set on fire rated downlights (to try and keep the sound out as much as I can with downlights), and a load of RockWool RW3 sound insulation, which will be fitted in the ceiling void around the downlights and inbetween the joists.

I'm still struggling though to make a decision on the actual lights - either 20w GU10 LV halogens, or equivalent 230v energy saving bulbs, or LED bulbs.

There's a toss up regarding the intitial cost of the bulbs compared to how much the energy savers will save me in electric, and the quality of light from LED downlighters.

 

[ColJack]

youy still need to keep your distance with the rockwool from the downlighters....

at least you won't need under tile heating..

 

[Mav3000]

After trying to get RockWool for this Saturday (its Thursday at the time of writing this) from various builders merchants, I will be off to Wickes to get their equivalent.

I'm looking at the fire rated downlights with the rear casing and the vents on the top, so plan to fit the insulation around these, but not over them.

Think I'm edging towards the 20w GU10 LV bulbs as I've heard the CFL and Energy Savign bulbs protrude out of the downlight a little more due to a longer length.

Will be looking to get one transformer for each light, so thats 18 fire rated downlights, 18 20w GU10 LV bulbs and 18 12v transformers.

I'll be getting the under cabinet lighting sorted out when we fit the new kitchen.

 

[LiamPope]

Check with the instructions for your downlights - some (like mine) may allow rockwool around, but probably all will at least recommend they are given some breathing space (less important if you're running CFL or LED).

I personally dont see the point in 12V lighting at all (maybe someone can explain?). All those transformers to go wrong, and they run even hotter and use even more energy than 230V. I'd stick with 230 GU10s, then you can swap out the bulbs later for LEDs when the cost comes down, or CFLs (surely you can get downlights that can accommodate the longer CFL lamps?).

Liam

 

[flameport]

I personally dont see the point in 12V lighting at all (maybe someone can explain?)

A 12v halogen lamp will give out more light than the 230V equivalent, so in theory you could use a lower wattage (35 instead of 50) or have fewer lamps.

In reality the light output is never considered other than it being '50 watts' or whatever and they are both grossly inefficient ways to provide lighting for a room.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

I used to think that the only reason for 12v d/l's was when the installation does not permit 230V (Bathroom zone perhaps) or in a position where they might be damaged and it wasn't a good idea to have 230V which may be able to be touched. The latter probably being a poor design IMO.

Although you may get equivalent light levels from 12V 35W and 230V 50W, don't be fooled into thinking you are using less energy. Transformers are not 100% efficient and may dissipate the 15W which you thought you had saved!

IMO, if you don't need to use 12V then why bother? All you are doing is introducing un-necessary transformers which are just one more thing to pay for, consider where to fit whilst maintaining accessibility and one more thing which can fail in service. An un-necessary link in the chain.

Maybe there is a differing point of view to support using 12V willy and indeed nilly, but i don't currently see it

I recently swapped my kitchen GU10's (6X50W) for 6x1.8W LED's. The Missus has a habit of leaving them on permanently from dusk til bed time, not much in the summer, but thats a lot of lost energy in the winter (typically on from 4pm til midnight )

The light is not as good, but not a big issue as we also have under cab lighting. I think when i get an oppotunity, i will change these for slightly more powerful types (about double what i have now, maybe 3W-ish?)

The LED's are the same pattern as normal GU10, fit perfectly!

 

[LiamPope]

I recently swapped my kitchen GU10's (6X50W) for 6x1.8W LED's. The Missus has a habit of leaving them on permanently from dusk til bed time, not much in the summer, but thats a lot of lost energy in the winter (typically on from 4pm til midnight )

The light is not as good, but not a big issue as we also have under cab lighting. I think when i get an oppotunity, i will change these for slightly more powerful types (about double what i have now, maybe 3W-ish?)

Ah ha - someone's finally reported on some LED experimentation . Out of interest, are your fittings recessed downlights or something like those bar fittings with a few pointable-wherever-you-want lights on them? How much worse is the light from the 1.8W? Do you think that more powerful LEDs will match the halogens, i.e. the claims that those expensive 5W ones are equivalent to 45W halogens might be reasonable?

Cheers,

Liam

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

They are recessed D/L's - i like the flat clean appearence they give to ceilings and don't harbour grease from cooking like bar spots do.

The night i swapped them from the 50's, i was a bit disappointed, but i think if you started a fresh install with them, you wouldn't be so mindful of the reduced light. The Missus describes the look as 'modern', they give off a much more blue-ish white light than the yellow-ish white of the halogens.

They were 3.99 ea. from TLC (from memory), not worth it on their own due to extra delivery cost, but was getting some other stuff anyway.

If i was solely reliant on these, they would not be good enough for cooking, but as mentioned, i still have some under cab florrys, so fine for me.

Moral of my story here is, LED - good for ambient light, give a nice subtle appearance, would go nice in a lounge/bedroom where ambience is sought, but not strong enough where close up detail is required.

Maybe go up to the next power level for the kitchen next time.

 

[Mav3000]

Just doing a bit of costing based on TLCs product catalogue. Still don't know whether to go for 18 20w LV downlights, or fewer mains voltage lights (these only seem to be 50w). Another choice are the CFL low voltage lights, again either 18 of the lower 7w or less of the higher wattage. Finally, there is the LEDs, which seem quite expensive.

LV 20w Lights with fire/acoustic brackets look like this:

Cases - £7.99 each, x 18 = £143.82
20w Bulbs - £1.25 each x 18 = £22.50
Transformers - £3.50 each x 18 = £63.00

Plus VAT at 15% gives a total cost of £263.72 plus delivery. Seems a bit of a waste to buy the fire rated downlights at £7.99 each with 50w bulbs in them, then swap them out for 20w bulbs.

20w x 18 = 360w power when both kitchen and dining room are switched on.

If we go down the LV route, our plan would be to have enough cable to pull the light back down from the ceiling, with the transformer too popping through the hole, in order to swap either out in the event of faults.