Live/Dead gas test. National Grid.

[Agile]

As Softus would say, which law have I broken?

DoItAll said last month that he wanted to kill me. But I am still alive ( I think! ). What law do you think that he has broken?

Tony

 

[geoff@cetltd]

bruddy 'ell

miss marple does CORGI

 

[Monsoon]

I bought the property 'as seen'. The capped off gas pipe was easily seen and no gas appliances were present.

If I get stuffed for the bill, it's down to me.

 

[doitall]

As Softus would say, which law have I broken?

None yet Tony on the other hand you shouldn't imply that you would on an open forum.

DoItAll said last month that he wanted to kill me. But I am still alive ( I think! ). What law do you think that he has broken?

Tony

Plenty of time good buddy after you paid for the indian [/i]

 

[gasmonkey]

monsoon,

You are not listening, the only body that can legally touch that pipe or the valve is the supplier and their agents. Transco/National Grid etc.

As such they are God.

Your only chance is to appeal against their better nature.

I am listening and I'll repeat what I said previously.

I have no intention of trying to turn it on myself

or anyone other than Transco.

its a valve with the handle removered as it will not fit the valve chamber/cover when fitted onto the body of gate valve, the washer and and retaining nut have been re-fitted to the spindle of the valve which is standard practice
usually after a year it is cut off at the main
if inserted new it will catch on valve sockets ec
if moled they will lay proper size diameter pe pipe
2 bar to 75 mbar is medium pressure you will have a service regulator on the service pipe if this is the case
possably be a dual service the were valved at the time of this pipe looking at photo
hope this helps

 

[Monsoon]

Gasmonkey, Cheers for your reply.

its a valve

Ok - You confirm it's a valve

with the handle removered

It would have a handle for turning on/off but they removed that. Presumambly when the previous owners requested disconnection.

usually after a year it is cut off at the main

So are you saying that the service pipe from the mains is cut, crushed or otherwise disconnected, so regardless if the valve was opened no gas would flow?

The property is a backland building. In front of the building is a block of flats and then infront of them is the Public highway.

I suspect they T off from the mains with a service pipe that feeds the flats and then continues along to feed my building. If they were to cut off my supply they would need to do it after the service supply feeds the flats. If they cut it off at the mains then both the flats and my building would lose the gas supply. Right?

Is it likely they would still dig down and disconnect the supply after the flats just to disconnect my supply?

if inserted new it will catch on valve sockets ec

Dont really follow what you mean

2 bar to 75 mbar is medium pressure you will have a service regulator on the service pipe if this is the case
possably be a dual service the were valved at the time of this pipe looking at photo

How can you work out it maybe a dual service from the photo? Do you mean there could be 2 service pipes? Would this be to provide double the amount of gas? - The building was/is commercial and has 3 phase electric. So it would make sense if the building had a higher gas requirement. Perhaps to power industrial equipment.

So where do I stand? Am I liable to receive a big bill from Transco?

 

[Softus]

As Softus would say, which law have I broken?

Since you've dragged me into this by means of a misquote, I'll exercise my right to present my opinion, and I would say that you've broken the law of common sense.

As is very often the case, your need to show off has led you off the path of logic and caution. For example, this:

As I am CORGI registered I would turn it on...

...was very soon followed by some fast-footed, but ineffective, backpedalling, viz:

I have told you that if its a gas valve its Transco property and no one should tamper with someone elses property.
.
.
.
I never said that a CORGI registered person can turn it on.

Oh, and regarding this advice:

Tony, I think u'd do yourself a favour by deleting your previous post.

It's too late.

 

[Agile]

Its never too late!

 

[Monsoon]

Just an update on this saga:-

It has been placed into the hands of the complaints department and energywatch are involved.

So where am I now?

Well the estimate has risen from £600 odd to £1100! - seems they have now more accurately looked at the distance required to run a new service.

Generally there is confusion over the regulations and how it should be implemented. I have asked them to indicate the appropriate part of the regs that supports their claim. I am awaiting this information. They quoted in a letter that a supply is made dead after 12 months of disconnection. So I asked why they even bother to make a live/dead test, if they know its dead? Answer: Sometimes they 'forget' to make it dead

Me: You carried out a test and you say my supply is dead
Them: Yes, thats correct sir.
Me: But you haven't tried turning the valve on outside my property.
Them: Correct
Me: Leaving aside the fact that I may have a perfectly good service pipe outside my property with the tap turned off. Can you guarantee the safety of my builders when I ask them to excavate and remove the 'dead' pipe during the laying of a new pathway.
Them: Pause ..... Well safety is out No1 priority at National Grid and we would not advise that any work to be carried out on the service pipe.
Me: Because you don't know if it's really dead?
Them: Even longer pause .... That's correct sir, can I offer to send an engineer out to turn on the valve and check if it is dead prior to the valve?
Me: That's a good idea - YES PLEASE

So the upshot is they can't be confident that the pipe is really dead until they turn on the valve. Turning on the valve may result in gas to my property negating the need for a new supply and a bill for 1100 quid. Seems that playing the safety card is the only real way to get them to act with any urgency

 

[JohnD]

Very cunning, well done.

 

[Agile]

Cunning but not well done yet!

When turning on the valve produces a supply inside you have got to think of a way to make him leave it on and fit a meter.

You could try to get him to test that the section after the valve is not leaking. If it does not leak you have got some argument that it should be left on.

Tony

 

[Damian30]

Hi,

There is a good chance that the service to your property has been disconnected under the requirements of the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations (Section 16(3)). Although this places duties on the Supplier, they are discharged by the Gas Transporter.

It may be that the service was 'isolated' at the service isolation valve but generally for domestic properties this is done at the House Entry Tee (if it is an above ground internal entry on a PE service pipe) or physically at the main.

It is likely that if the service has been isolated at the service vale, it will likely be inoperable or the service (particularly if steel) will not pass a test to recommission. In which case, you will need to pay for a new connection.

Even if the service pipe can be re-commissioned, depending on your particular gas load and usage, it may not be suitable and you would need to request a capacity upgrade. This may or may not be chargeable depending upon your particular circumstances. You will also need to arrange with a Gas Supplier to have a meter fitted.

It is a case of 'buyer beware' when you purchase a property and the fact that there looks like what may be a gas service pipe to the property does not necessarily mean that it is connected to the gas distribution network. The fact that there may be a pipe to a property does not necessarily mean that the gas transporter has an obligation to use it (e.g. it may not be fir for purpose compared to current standards).

Clearly safety is the key driver in this complex area, so please be patient and I am sure that you will get a full response in due course.

Best wishes

 

[Agile]

Now, I dont suppose that Damian is based in Hinkley by any chance?

Well Monsoon, I think that you have now had the closest thing to an official response !

Its good that some people take the trouble to help!

Tony

 

[Monsoon]

Cheers for the reply - As mentioned your reply does have an official air to it - which is all good because there seems to be a lot of contradictory information.

Hi,

There is a good chance that the service to your property has been disconnected under the requirements of the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations (Section 16(3)). Although this places duties on the Supplier, they are discharged by the Gas Transporter.

Fully understand the reason for this.

It may be that the service was 'isolated' at the service isolation valve but generally for domestic properties this is done at the House Entry Tee (if it is an above ground internal entry on a PE service pipe) or physically at the main.

The live/dead test is carried out to ensure the service pipe across my property is live or dead, If that is the reason for the test? How can it be acceptable for the engineer to just test the capped off end within the property and pronounce the pipe dead when it's obvious there is a valve outside?

It is likely that if the service has been isolated at the service vale, it will likely be inoperable or the service (particularly if steel) will not pass a test to recommission. In which case, you will need to pay for a new connection.

I dont get this - If the gas has been isolated the majority of the service pipe to my property will already have gas in it( the other side of the valve is only a few feet). Why should this now be deemed as inoperable? There's no indication it's leaking.

Even if the service pipe can be re-commissioned, depending on your particular gas load and usage, it may not be suitable and you would need to request a capacity upgrade. This may or may not be chargeable depending upon your particular circumstances. You will also need to arrange with a Gas Supplier to have a meter fitted.

The pipe diameter is approx 2"

It is a case of 'buyer beware' when you purchase a property and the fact that there looks like what may be a gas service pipe to the property does not necessarily mean that it is connected to the gas distribution network. The fact that there may be a pipe to a property does not necessarily mean that the gas transporter has an obligation to use it (e.g. it may not be fir for purpose compared to current standards).

Clearly safety is the key driver in this complex area,

I don't think safety has been given top priority in my case as demonstrated by my example of the builders removing the 'dead' service pipe. If I was not of the mind to pursue this it is possible that we could have had an emergency situation on our hands.

If the service pipe is tested sound then I should just be charged for a reconnection and not a new run of pipe. I can't imagine that the Gas Safety regulation were introduced to allow National Grid carte blanche to charge for putting in new pipe when it isn't required. As Tony(Agile) mentioned earlier it sounds very much like National Grid simply want to claw back missing standing charges for the period of time the supply was disconnected.

The original developer has paid for the supply to the property, the previous owners will have paid to have it disconnected and I'm prepared to pay for a reconnection (and a new pipe if required). So NG really *doesn't* appear to be doing too bad by doing proper tests.

 

[Agile]

"""As Tony(Agile) mentioned earlier it sounds very much like National Grid simply want to claw back missing standing charges for the period of time the supply was disconnected."""

I did not say that !!!

What I did say is that if you pay the standing charge then the supply is left live for ever even if you dont use gas.

If you are really clever then you can get a "no standing charge" tariff and keep the supply live without using any gas. They are less likely to cotton on to that if you have the same supplier for gas and elec.

I agree that its all a sham. But equally I understand that if you want a supply maintained then its reasonable that you pay the standing charge!

You will have a good argument that if any new supply pipe is needed it should only be from the valve onwards.

Tony