Live/Dead gas test. National Grid.

[Monsoon]

If you are really clever then you can get a "no standing charge" tariff and keep the supply live without using any gas. They are less likely to cotton on to that if you have the same supplier for gas and elec.

I read this before but I dont see how this applies to me.

The previous owners had the gas disconnected(for whatever reason). If I pick a gas supplier who will supply gas without charging me a standing charge they will *still* ask me to contact National Grid to get me connected to the network in the 1st place.

Back to square one - Can't see how this gets me any further forward

 

[Softus]

Monsoon, I can understand that the anticipated charge may well be both expensive and irritating, but I don't get why it's coming as a surprise, or why you think that it's in some way unfair and/or unreasonable.

If you don't think that then I apologise in advance or your reply, but you're requesting a service from a business that has a goal of being profitable. It seems to me to be an entirely successful way of making a profit to charge a realistic amount, i.e. that reflects the work involved, for reconnection according to the current safety regulations.

It's normal, as part of conveyancing, to ask the vendor about the live services. If your solicitor asked the question then he's discharged his responsiblity, and if the vendor indicated that the gas wasn't live, then he's discharged his responsiblity. If either or both of them didn't, then you may have a reasonable chance of holding them liable for either negligence or misrepresentation, respectively.

If it was the case that you simply failed to notice the implication of a dead gas supply, and you didn't determine out the cost of reinstatement before exchanging contracts, then it doesn't seem fair of you to point the finger at anyone else.

 

[Monsoon]

My only concern is justice. When the engineer came along, took off the cap inside my property and proclaimed the service pipe as dead, I naturally asked if he was going to turn on the valve, outside the property. You dont have to be a plumbing expert to realise that if you have a shut valve you wont get much out the end.

I appreciate that NG need to make a profit and if this valve is the reason for no gas to my property I am happy to pay a reasonable charge to have it switched on and a soundness test carried out.

The safety card seems to be a standard response to anyone querying NG's money making efforts, but I see no good safety reason for not turning this valve on and completing the live/dead test. Equally there is a very good safety reason for turning the valve on i.e. my builder will be relaying the path and would like to know if it's really live or dead (he's partial to his roll ups by all accounts )

I don't buy this whole thing about 'buyer beware', surveyors fault, Your fault argument, its a complete red herring. The property purchase represents a sound investment regardless of if I need to take 1100 quid out of my contingency or not.

The issue here is one of principle.

 

[Agile]

If the service pipe is pressurised and does not leak then that will not satisfy Transco. They can still say it might leak in the future and you have no argument against them.

Its a falacious argument because the pipe deteriorates whether its carying gas or not.

If the pipe had been pressurised and you or the previous owner was paying the standing charge, if any, then there would be no problem.

Your problem is because the previous owner was NOT paying a standing charge. The reality is there is no technical argument, just the facts that if a service charge is being paid an old service pipe is retained and of no service charge it is deemed dead and cannot ( normally ) be reused.

Please be aware Monsoon that what I write is not always specifically directed at your individual situation but sometimes to add to the generality for the hundreds of people who read these forums for information, advice and learning.

Tony Glazier

 

[Softus]

My only concern is justice.

Well normally I would share that concern, but I haven't seen the injustice in your situation; yet...

I appreciate that NG need to make a profit and if this valve is the reason for no gas to my property I am happy to pay a reasonable charge to have it switched on and a soundness test carried out.

I'm not sure that you're grasping the fact that the thing you're happy to pay for is probably not a service that NG is willing to offer you.

Equally there is a very good safety reason for turning the valve on i.e. my builder will be relaying the path and would like to know if it's really live or dead (he's partial to his roll ups by all accounts )

This isn't a convincing argument at all - if you're can't quickly ascertain that the pipe is most definitely dead, then the only safe course of action is to treat it as though it's still live.

I don't buy this whole thing about 'buyer beware', surveyors fault, Your fault argument, its a complete red herring.

I just told it like it is. Whether or not you make use of your statutory rights is up to you.

The issue here is one of principle.

Nope - you've lost me. What's the principle at stake here?

 

[Monsoon]

Well normally I would share that concern, but I haven't seen the injustice in your situation; yet...

Well watch this space, they have already conceded that they should open the valve to do a proper test.

I'm not sure that you're grasping the fact that the thing you're happy to pay for is probably not a service that NG is willing to offer you.

'Probably not a service' isn't good enough for me. It either is or it isn't, I expect a definitive answer from NG. 'Probably' may be OK for some but I just read that as 'possibly there is a service'. Like I say watch this space.

This isn't a convincing argument at all - if you're can't quickly ascertain that the pipe is most definitely dead, then the only safe course of action is to treat it as though it's still live.

I'm not sure you're grasping the fact that they proclaimed my service pipe as dead without fully testing it (hence the revisit). If safety is No1 priority they should have made the service across my property permanently dead. By saying it may or may not be dead (In fairness to them they are not making the argument you are making. They share my concern that it would be better to know for sure).

The issue here is one of principle.

Nope - you've lost me. What's the principle at stake here?

A number of principles of customer service, clear and structured pricing, provision of information etc etc.

Anyway lets see how it pans out

 

[Coulster]

Any conclusions to this yet?

The engineer who visited your property first cannot turn on the valve in your garden as he cannot safely test the valve and the pipework between the valve in the garden upto the ecv. Hence his decision that the service is dead, ie a meter cannot be connected to a dead service. It is not mandatory for National Grid to provide every house with a gas service. Hence who would pay for this? Not profit making industry, whats the point?

Hang on I here what your saying, it MAY not be dead which is your argumnet and to be honest entirely feesable.

It comes down to Gas safety regs and National Grid policy.

An existing service which is in steel, which has gas upto the ECV can have a meter re connected to it as its classed as still LIVE, no gas at ECV is classed as dead. If the service was plastic in the garden then its upto current safety regs so can be reused. If there was a gas leak on the steel service then its National Grids responsibility to repair or replace the service, which would be in PE and back to the main as they are not allowed to connect onto an existing steel service.

National Grid would carry out a free test on the pipe in the garden to see if it had gas in it, due to safety aspect (where your talking about a builder wanting to remove an acclaimed dead pipe). If found to be live then the pipe would be arranged to be cut off outside the property (depending who it fed ie a dual service feeding another property). The pipe would not be reinstated as it would have to be renewed in plastic PE pipe back to the main (company safety and responsibilities). Which is where the cost is incurred as you well know by now.

So hope this isnt a load of drivel, gas required by YOU, no adequate service according to National Grids current policy and regulated responsibilities hence the need for you to pay for the new service as its you that requests the gas and not them trying to sell you something on the off chance.

Look at it from a different aspect. You have an old lead water service terminated at a valve in the garden, no water in house, newly owned property, you request water service, water company come out and say we cant connect to the live lead service as we cannot deem it to be safe and does not comply with our current regs, you wouldnt think twice about shelling out the cash for the new water service which you know will be safe as its upto current regs.

 

[doitall]

Yep drivel it is Coulster, complete rip-off.

National grid are not to know if the supply is steel or PE.

Your example with the lead water pipe just adds meaning to the rip-off merchant called National Grid.

In case you hadn't realised, the Water Company will change the lead for MDPE as a free lead replacement service, the customer just paying a few pounds for the inside bit.

"Bristol Water" were asked to quote for a new service in Bath, man turns up to inspect. He said 'We will renew that for free if you can excavate the inside and through the wall' just give me a call on my mobile when your ready.

That is service.



[/i]

 

[Coulster]

Yep drivel it is Coulster, complete rip-off.

National grid are not to know if the supply is steel or PE.


[/i]

When they come out after the first guy has been to do Live/dead check then they will know. ie plastic coming from the valve (highly unlikely by the look of the valve in the picture) or steel.

 

[doitall]

Last meter would have been in steel to meet the regs.

 

[Coulster]

Why say they would not know then?

 

[doitall]

Why say they would not know then?

Because they would have to dig a hole to find out.

And if they did that they would have to test the pipe in the ground which incidentally still contains gas at mains pressure, dead or not dead, the safety issue still remains, either the pipe is safe or it should have been disconnected at the mains.

The last 1m from the valve could easily be inspected and tested.

 

[Monsoon]

Follow up info.

I've had another visit from National Grid and they say the it's not a valve it's a syphon.

So really it seems to boil down to the gas regulation which alledgely says National Grid MUST replace pipework that has not been used for over 12 months.

Does anyone actually know the *exact* wording of regulation which they seem to be referring to?

I have asked for this information but neither Energywatch or NG have furnished me with the section of text.

 

[doitall]

Have a browse through;

http://www.gas-guide.org.uk/regulators.html

 

[Damian30]

Hi,

I haven't got time to explain the details at the moment but this should explain why the service has been disconnected:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/98245103.htm#16