Loft light dependant on hallway

[hutch980]

Hi!

Hoping some bright minds can help me here.

I'm convinced my loft light used to work independently of the hallway/landing light however following some DIY many years ago it is now dependant on the hallway light being on , marriage and multiple children later I'm finally getting around to sorting things out but I can't for the life of me get the loft light working without powering the hallway.

The cut red wire was taped over with brown tape. Removed for clarity.

This is how the light is usually wired
Again ignore the red tape I placed that on as a temporary marker when I was trying to figure it out myself

 

[terryplumb]

You need a permanent live to go to your loft light switch . If loft switch is only live when hall light is switched on ,then the loft switch is connected to a switched live ,not a permanent live.
It's impossible to tell from your pics exactly which conductor ,if any, is permanently live. You would need to do some voltage testing to establish that.
Do you have any voltage testing instruments ?

 

[hutch980]

Thank you, the father in law is making an appearance tonight and he is bringing his multimeter.

 

[SUNRAY]

Terry is correct.

I'm a little concerned one of your black wires in the rose has red tape on it, that would often be a marker to indicate it's a live wire of some sort. was that picture taken before the pic of wires exiting the ceiling (with your coloured writing) or after attempting to restore?

The type of single wire you have is most often used where the permanent live is looped around the switches and neutral is looped around the lights, all things considered (assuming your rose wiring is a before pic) I'll make the assumption the loft light has always worked with the hall light if it's always been connected at that rose. (I'm also assuming the hall light is the left switch and one of a pair of 2 way switches)
However the pic of the switch is telling a story with the twin and earth cable to the right switch, installed within the last 20 years, which is wired as another method of lights wiring was this an alteration - such as an additional light or moving a light etc - what is the switch for?
It has apparently left a redundant wire in the switch (You mention it did have tape on it), if you are able to find the other end of that a solution to finding a permanent live for your loft light.(it may be found at the location related to the right switch alterations) Another solution may be movin your loft light cable from the existing rose to wherever the right switch cable goes to.

I guess it hasn't been a problem working as it currently is and additionally it means the loft lift can't be accidentally permanently left on, however it could mean the light is turned off when someone is in the loft (especially if you are impressing on the children the importance of turning of unneccesary lights).

Let's not forget to thank you for excellent pictures and information in your first ever post on this forum.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Again ignore the red tape I placed that on as a temporary marker when I was trying to figure it out myself

 

[terryplumb]

Your switch pictured has 2 gangs ,one for the hall light ,what is the other gang for ( the one that has a twin and earth cable with brown and blue insulated conductors connected to it )??

 

[hutch980]

Terry is correct.

I'm a little concerned one of your black wires in the rose has red tape on it, that would often be a marker to indicate it's a live wire of some sort. was that picture taken before the pic of wires exiting the ceiling (with your coloured writing) or after attempting to restore?

That was my poor choice of colour tape just as a temporary marker before I lifted loft boards to identify which cable was running to the adjacent bedroom. I've since removed the tape now.

I've since been and bought a multimeter and all the cables are showing no current when the hallway switch is off. When I turned the switch on the red cable which runs to the switch shows 240v.

Have to assume I don't have a permanent live.

 

[hutch980]

Your switch pictured has 2 gangs ,one for the hall light ,what is the other gang for ( the one that has a twin and earth cable with brown and blue insulated conductors connected to it )??

The other switch controls the bathroom light and feeds the extractor fan switch which is protected by a fuse socket in the adjoining bedroom

 

[SUNRAY]

Thanks EFL I missed that.

 

[SUNRAY]

That was my poor choice of colour tape just as a temporary marker before I lifted loft boards to identify which cable was running to the adjacent bedroom. I've since removed the tape now.

I've since been and bought a multimeter and all the cables are showing no current when the hallway switch is off. When I turned the switch on the red cable which runs to the switch shows 240v.

Have to assume I don't have a permanent live.

Thanks, yes I've just seen EFL's post.

What about the other points?

 

[terryplumb]

Is the bathroom fan and extractor on the same lighting circuit as the other switch ?
Show us a pic of the " fused socket"

 

[hutch980]

Just an update. Found a solution as I was putting the boards back down in loft noticed two single cables taped off (black and a red)

Used continuity meter to determine the red was the terminated red behind landing switch and the black was wired into the rose in the second bedroom. Done my diligence to confirm that the red is in fact on the same lighting ring as the rest of the upstairs lights

Thank you all for your help and for prompting ideas to help me get to a solution.

This isn't the final wiring. Need to go get myself a box!

 

[terryplumb]

Why is the black conductor, which I assume is a neutral ,connected to the brown, and the blue connected to the red ?
That may well end up as reversed polarity.
I don't really follow your description of what you have done to be frank.

 

[Adam_151]

Besides the polarity being swapped on the new T&E, we should probably address the elephant in the room, in that the original lighting circuit appears to have no earth, appearing to be wired in 3/029 6181Y, some additions have an earth, but given the fact that in most pictures it is shown cut off or taped up, then I very much doubt the earth connected to the class 1 switch actually has continuity back to the means of earthing.

After 60 years (appears to date from early 1960s) that lighting cirucit is overdue for re-wiring

 

[ebee]

Just a note on this one.
I have in the past deliberately make the loft light dependant on hallway light etc.
Some people tell me "Oh I keep leaving the loft lighting on for months and it must be costing me a fortune (filament lamps)".
So I offered to make the loft light switch only operational by its own switch if the hallway light is on.
Off course that sometimes gives the opposite effect - they climb into the loft and try switch it on, it don`t work because they forget to switch the hallway light on first. You can never always win!

Mind you, I once rewired a ladies house and I kept seeing a carrier bag tied to one of her door handles at various times on various days.
I eventually asked why?
Whenever she put a pan on the hob she tied the carrier bag to the door handle as a visual reminder to turn it off before the "pan melted".