Loft Light

[FatGit]

There are some things that a normal person can't do. But there are some things that they can, without all the gear.
What I was saying is that people have different standards of work and there are circumstances when they are required.
For example, you (not unreasonably) said you don't need a Dr for a headache. But you do need one for an operation.
What I mean is that many simple electrical instals can be done DIY and have been for years, without much harm. Probably not many more people have died because of this than the number who have died from brain tumours after self-treating headaches!
It's plain unreasonable to say that you need a fully qualified spark for a simple install, provided the person knows what they are doing.

 

[ColJack]

Working to BS7671 is not just for electricians, its the requirements for electrical installations and anybody carrying out such work.

absolute tosh..

the regs are not legally binding..
you do NOT HAVE TO work to the regs...

working to the regs is ONE way to comply with the law that says electrical work shall be done safely by a competent person..

the reason WE have to work to the regs is that 99% of the time the work we do is in other peoples homes.. which then makes US liable if anyone gets hurt.. but if they do work in their home then THEY are responsible for peoples safety in it..


if you buy a new dishwasher or washing machine, do you check that you have sufficient water preasure and flow to still be able to use the shower with them operating?

no?

so why do you expect that a DIY'er is going to check that adding a few new wall lights or a loft light isn't going to overload the breaker?

 

[GaryMo]

I know BS7671 is non-statutory but EAW is and who do they look upon for guidance? BS7671.
If you don't comply then you had better have a good reason why not.
Because the job was DIY is not a good reason.

"the reason WE have to work to the regs is that 99% of the time the work we do is in other peoples homes.. which then makes US liable if anyone gets hurt.. but if they do work in their home then THEY are responsible for peoples safety in it.. "

That's exactly what I'm getting at! If they work to BS7671 then there shouldn't be a problem should there?
Now, how many DIY'ers do just that?

 

[wiggles]

OP, I've just read your previous posts about adding a spur, you seriously need an electrician!

I'm not one and have tackled many electrical jobs in the past (for myself and before part P)- but only when I was absolutely certain that I had the knowledge to do the job properly.

The downside of DIY electrics (where permitted) is that unfortunately, no matter how careful and knowledgeable the installer - without expensive and dedicated equipment, it's impossible to fully test installations.

As DIY electrics is concerned, the most important lesson is knowing when a job is over your head before you even start. You cannot seriously contemplate this task without at least doing some proper research. The fact that you are considering doing so whilst demonstrating your ignorance on the subject really scares me.

 

[securespark]

This is a wind-up!

krspa9 has gone very quiet.

S/He asks a ridiculously basic question, then tells everyone it can't be that difficult - it's so easy s/he has to ask here - then s/he sits back & watches the fireworks.

 

[GaryMo]

OP, I've just read your previous posts about adding a spur, you seriously need an electrician!

I'm not one and have tackled many electrical jobs in the past (for myself and before part P)- but only when I was absolutely certain that I had the knowledge to do the job properly.

The downside of DIY electrics (where permitted) is that unfortunately, no matter how careful and knowledgeable the installer - without expensive and dedicated equipment, it's impossible to fully test installations.

As DIY electrics is concerned, the most important lesson is knowing when a job is over your head before you even start. You cannot seriously contemplate this task without at least doing some proper research. The fact that you are considering doing so whilst demonstrating your ignorance on the subject really scares me.

Good post and a very sensible approach.

 

[FatGit]

"the reason WE have to work to the regs is that 99% of the time the work we do is in other peoples homes.. which then makes US liable if anyone gets hurt.. but if they do work in their home then THEY are responsible for peoples safety in it.. "

That's exactly what I'm getting at! If they work to BS7671 then there shouldn't be a problem should there?
Now, how many DIY'ers do just that?

But there is no need for it - it is their life and their property.
I know a little about the standards required to run a commercial kitchen, and the requirements for testing/record keeping/training of chefs etc.
Do you or anyone else run their home kitchen to the same standards. I'd say less than 1% of people came anywhere near commercial standards in their kitchen. There is no need, as they are taking the risk themselves, not providing a service for money.
I'm sure more people die from food hygine issues than from dodgy DIY electrics!

 

[Pensdown]

with all due respect.. the average DIY'er doesn't need any test equipment other than a multimeter or volt stick..

A question from the Health & Saftey Electrotechnical Certification Scheme.

Which of the following should not be used to prove a circuit or equipement is dead after isolation?

a) A two pole volatge tester
b) A proprietary test lamp/volt stick
c) A suitable voltmeter
d) A multimeter.

 

[davelx]

I would have no problem with (DIYers) being requiried to be qualified to do electrical work, to prove they are competent to do it.

I would have a big problem if that meant they had to be registered with/a member of a trade organisation with vested interests and have pay fees to them - that should only be required if you are doing electrical work professionally.

 

[FatGit]

Ther sticking point of such a scheme, while a good idea, is cost. The DIYer is probably not going to want to pay to run the scheme and I can't think that councils would want to foot the bill.
While people who do DIYU electrical work regularly or do more advanced work would probably sign up, the man who fits a socket once in a blue moon isn't going to want to pay, and I question whether he should have it. Afterall, it is his property.

 

[GaryMo]

While people who do DIYU electrical work regularly or do more advanced work would probably sign up, the man who fits a socket once in a blue moon isn't going to want to pay, and I question whether he should have it. Afterall, it is his property.

Is he then responsible for anybody entering that property that gets a shock from his unearthed socket?
Should he have carried out specific tests after installing the socket?
Should the worst happen and this person dies, would a court ask the DIY'er if he was competent to carry out electrical work?
Should he have looked to BS7671 as basic requirements to his electrical installation?

 

[JohnD]

There is a balance between cost, amount of trouble, and the likelihood and severity of risk.

I believe deaths due to electrical accidents in the UK are about ten a year, and due to road traffic accidents are about ten a week.

I don't know what deaths are due to cigarette smoking, might be ten a day or ten an hour or ten a minute.

In England and wales, a line has been drawn for electrical work, saying what is notifiable and what isn't. A lot of householders would probably fit new or additional sockets, change light fittings, replace damaged cables even if they weren't allowed to. A sensible and careful householder can learn to do any of these things properly in half an hour or so, although he will not be equipped to carry out the tests that a professional should do.

Changing a CU is both more difficult and more complex, and more likely to introduce danger if done wrong (e.g. the amusing picture of the circuits being connected to the supply side of MCBs; or the question of if, when or how to pull the supplier's fuse or work live) and the line has been drawn that this is notifiable work.

additionally, an incompetent or reckless electrician may be introducing danger into hundreds of properties in a year, so it is more worthwhile trying to root him out than trying to control the millions of householders, who will do very little electrical work, on average, in a year.

Some will say that a single life lost is too many, and there should be no limit on the money and effort spent to prevent it. Sadly this isn't true. We spend money trying to prevent deaths by disease, by accident, by pollution of drinking water or rotten food. It makes more sense to save the maximum number of lives with the money available, whatever that amount is, by concentrating our efforts where they get the best return.

 

[FatGit]

While people who do DIYU electrical work regularly or do more advanced work would probably sign up, the man who fits a socket once in a blue moon isn't going to want to pay, and I question whether he should have it. Afterall, it is his property.

Is he then responsible for anybody entering that property that gets a shock from his unearthed socket?
Should he have carried out specific tests after installing the socket?
Should the worst happen and this person dies, would a court ask the DIY'er if he was competent to carry out electrical work?
Should he have looked to BS7671 as basic requirements to his electrical installation?

Should a person going for a dinner party get food poisoning?
Should the householder have tested the food to standards?
Should the householder have to be qualifed chef to hold a dinner party?

How many people die from food poisoning vs DIY electrics? Should we make everyone do a chef course before they cook tea?

 

[GaryMo]

Should we make everyone do a chef course before they cook tea?

If you'll involve my wife then yes!

 

[breezer]

they say most accidents happen in the kitchen, i know, i have to eat them