Meter tails - ownership question

[griffta]

Hi,

Wondering if anyone could give me some advice. I am the leaseholder of a one bedroom 1st floor flat located at the end of a two story row of terrace houses. Access to the flat is via external steps and the freehold owner and landlord is the local council.

An electrician who quoted for an EICR recently advised that the meter tails to my flat need to be upgraded as they are not double insulated.

From what I can tell the tails run in conduit buried in the wall from the rear of my CU, up in to the loft then down within the wall to the meter which is located outside at ground level. This means that they run within the wall space of the property below mine.

The electrician is concerned that they may not easily pull out and therefore will caveat his quote accordingly.

As the tails could be considered part of the building infrastructure, am I or the Landlord responsible for these?

Unfortunately I tend to agree with the sparky that getting the tails out might be tricky and the only other alternative would be external SWA or 25mm conduit - but this would require landlord consent... another headache....

Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Matt.

 

[flameport]

the tails run in conduit buried in the wall

What kind of conduit? Metal, plastic? Round conduit or rectangular trunking?

Who is responsible depends on what arrangements there are regarding maintenance of the common areas of the building.

 

[sparkwright]

Single insulated tails are allowed in conduit, under correct conditions etc.

It may be an idea to leave the single insulated tails alone in the conduit, and concentrate on finding some kind of enclosure for them where they leave tne conduit.

Pictures would be good here.

 

[JohnW2]

An electrician who quoted for an EICR recently advised that the meter tails to my flat need to be upgraded as they are not double insulated.

Assuming that it is proper steel conduit, the parts of the tails within the conduit do not need to be 'double insulated' (insulated and sheathed).

As a sort-of 'left-field thought', I wonder if you have discussed with your electrician whether it might perhaps be possible to do something about just those bits (assuming there are some) which are not within conduit?

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

Even if they did pull out, which he seems to have doubts, I would have thought it unlikely that you would get bigger cables back in.

 

[griffta]

Thanks for the replies.

What kind of conduit? Metal, plastic? Round conduit or rectangular trunking?

I'm not sure, but I'm back there tomorrow, so I'll find this out and post some photos

The tails enter directly in to the rear of the CU and extend within the external wall to the meter cupboard.

 

[JohnW2]

The tails enter directly in to the rear of the CU and extend within the external wall to the meter cupboard.

If it's suitable conduit and goes all the way to the CU, then the tails would not have to be 'double insulated' at that end - leaving only the other (meter) end to be considered.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter;

(ii) adequate mechanical protection of the basic insulation is provided by one or more of the following:
(a) The non-metallic sheath of the cable
(b) Non-metallic trunking or ducting complying with the BS EN 50085 series of standards, or non-metallic conduit complying with the BS EN 61386 series of standards.
NOTE 1: Cable product standards do not specify impulse withstand capability. However. it is considered that the insulation of the cabling system is at least equivalent to the requirement in BS EN 61140 for reinforced insulation.

So a cable without a sheath should be in some protection, but I would say some common sense needs to be used, although cables in the cavity are no longer allowed it is clear in the cavity they will not be mechanically damaged, in real terms finding the BS EN number is not easy, and as long as unlikely to be damaged be it trunking, or split conduit can't really see a problem.

 

[JM2]

Surely the whole electrical installation is the landlord's responsibility in this case.

If it was mine (as landlord) I wouldn't want anyone else even touching the installation (I know, what will be will be - but major stuff like this would be a no no).

 

[JohnW2]

Surely the whole electrical installation is the landlord's responsibility in this case. ... If it was mine (as landlord) I wouldn't want anyone else even touching the installation ...

I may be wrong, but I didn't think we were talking about a landlord-tenant relationship for rented property.

Rather, I thought the OP was saying that he owned the Leasehold of the property. If that is the case then, particularly with long (e.g. 99 year or 999 year) Leases, the owner of the Leasehold is often essentially responsible for everything (just as if they were owner-occupiers of a Freehold property).

Only the terms of the Lease can answer the OP's question about responsibilities.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

So a cable without a sheath should be in some protection, but I would say some common sense needs to be used, although cables in the cavity are no longer allowed it is clear in the cavity they will not be mechanically damaged, in real terms finding the BS EN number is not easy, and as long as unlikely to be damaged be it trunking, or split conduit can't really see a problem.

I agree. Almost anything sensible (e.g. plastic conduit, trunking or ducting) is adequate to provide the required additional protection for single-insulated cables.

That ought to be straightforward at the CU end, but there would probably be a problem in providing such protection all the way to the meter at the other end. However, I would have thought that one could terminate the existing cables in an enclosure close to the meter and then add a couple of feet of 'double-insulated' (insulated+sheathed) cables from that enclosure for the 'dangly bits' to the meter.

In fact, from what the OP is described, it sounds as if the run from meter to CU is probably well in excess of 3 metres so, in accordance with the 'alleged rule' (wherever that may come from), there probably ought to be a switch-fuse at the meter end of the tails. If such were installed, that could serve as the 'enclosure close to the meter' which I have just suggested.

As you say, common sense would probably say that one could 'ignore' whatever was going on within the cavity of the wall - but, of course, one does not know whether 'the EICR man' deals with common sense!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JM2]

Unsure, I read this as written.

... and landlord is the local council...

But that may have been the steps.

 

[JohnW2]

Unsure, I read this as written. .... But that may have been the steps.

I have to say that I missed (or, at least, didn't 'take in') that bit. So, your interpretation may be correct although, as you say, that comment may have related only to the steps.

Hopefully the OP will clarify. On the face of it, if he were merely a tenant (of a rented property) it's not clear why he would be getting a quote for an EICR and/or why he would think that he might be responsible for any of the electrical installation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Tenants don't usually refer to themselves as leaseholders.
OP you may well be on the hook for the tails (usual deal is after the meter= occupiers problem), best plan will be one of the options above, pulling new cable into the conduit would be no fun. Worth checking your lease terms first though....

 

[ericmark]

and landlord is the local council.

So not a private landlord

As you say, common sense would probably say that one could 'ignore' whatever was going on within the cavity of the wall - but, of course, one does not know whether 'the EICR man' deals with common sense!!

Does it matter what he thinks, nothing forces the landlord to follow the findings, as not a private landlord. New law is The Electrical Safety Standards in the Private Rented Sector (England) Regulations 2020 and if local council not private.