MK garage consumer unit tripping out

[slup]

Must be a troll, surely?

No just a flabbergasted rgi.

I meant the original poster, not you! I too am flabbergasted!

 

[bernardgreen]

I am NOT advocating that people do things they do not understand or work to a lower standard than is appropriate. I never have and never will.

BUT if a person is determined to do it whether or not I help then in the majority of cases offering help can help avoid a total disaster.

No one can force the un-informed DIYer not to take on the task unless one can physically remove the tools from the person.

 

[JohnW2]

I am NOT advocating that people do things they do not understand or work to a lower standard than is appropriate. I never have and never will. BUT if a person is determined to do it whether or not I help then in the majority of cases offering help can help avoid a total disaster.

Exactly - that's what I find myself having to write quite often in this forum.

In the case of this thread, it was apparent that the job had more-or-less been completed, so it was quite clear that turning back the clock and getting the work re-done professionally was not going to be an option in the OP's mind. As I wrote to him, undertaking the work without an understanding of how and RCD works (and making a mistake as a result) is clearly far from ideal, but there was no realistic option to helping the OP on this occasion.

Having said that, I have, for example, seen a good few 'competent' electricians suggest that a 30 mA RCD limits current flow (e.g. through a human body) to 30 mA - so I would similarly question whether they should be doing electrical work!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Disagree - always have and always will.

1) People must not work on things they don't understand, and must not be encouraged, advised or helped to do so.

2) A DIYer must not work to lower safety standards than a professional, and must not be encouraged, advised or helped to do so.

I will admit that I am more inclined to support your view than I was a few weeks ago because there seems to be, lately, more of a predominance of posters who clearly do not have the first idea of what they are doing let alone electrics.

There have been posts from apparent 'electricians' whose RCD is tripping because they have put a neutral in the wrong bar. This poster is similar because he, in effect, put all the neutrals in the wrong bar, albeit one wire. A particularly obvious mistake to nearly anyone because he was left with a vacant terminal in the main component of his new CU but still he did not think this odd. A degree level scientist with no common sense apart from electrical sense

Whether helping him - avert the possible melting of his wires if not an actual fire - is better than ignoring him can be argued but this raises questions I have asked before; i.e. what, therefore, is the purpose of the forum?

Who do we help?
Who decides?
Do we only answer technical questions from electricians who are correct but just want to make sure, but, if incorrect ignore?
Do we limit ourselves to discussions on the regulations?

Also, what is it about electrics which makes people think they can do it with NO knowledge when they would not dream of attempting repairs to the gas system or even their plumbing or their car?

Is it because you only need a screwdriver and a pair of scissors?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I am NOT advocating that people do things they do not understand or work to a lower standard than is appropriate. I never have and never will.

BUT if a person is determined to do it whether or not I help then in the majority of cases offering help can help avoid a total disaster.

By helping them you are advocating that they do it.

The only way to advocate that they don't is to tell them not to.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Exactly - that's what I find myself having to write quite often in this forum.

By helping them you are advocating that they do it.

The only way to advocate that they don't is to tell them not to.

In the case of this thread, it was apparent that the job had more-or-less been completed, so it was quite clear that turning back the clock and getting the work re-done professionally was not going to be an option in the OP's mind.

Then that is entirely due to his malfunctioning mind.

By helping him blunder a way out of his immediate problem you have made his not getting the work professionally re-done partly your fault.

As I wrote to him, undertaking the work without an understanding of how and RCD works (and making a mistake as a result) is clearly far from ideal, but there was no realistic option to helping the OP on this occasion.

Yes there was - tell him not to do it.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

what, therefore, is the purpose of the forum?

To advise, help, and teach.

For example if someone posts with the all-reds-together-all-blacks-together-and-when-I-switch-on-the-MCB-trips problem you give them the information they need in order to learn and understand for themselves how lighting circuits work and what they did wrong.

Also, what is it about electrics which makes people think they can do it with NO knowledge when they would not dream of attempting repairs to the gas system or even their plumbing or their car?

I wish I knew....

 

[scousespark]

I am NOT advocating that people do things they do not understand or work to a lower standard than is appropriate. I never have and never will.

BUT if a person is determined to do it whether or not I help then in the majority of cases offering help can help avoid a total disaster.

No one can force the un-informed DIYer not to take on the task unless one can physically remove the tools from the person.

You are advocating a lower standard. Being a DIYER does not absolve this guy from the need to test. When he posted he had an incomplete circuit. Now it has electricity flowing, but we have NO IDEA if it's safe.

 

[scousespark]

I am NOT advocating that people do things they do not understand or work to a lower standard than is appropriate. I never have and never will. BUT if a person is determined to do it whether or not I help then in the majority of cases offering help can help avoid a total disaster.

Exactly - that's what I find myself having to write quite often in this forum.

In the case of this thread, it was apparent that the job had more-or-less been completed, so it was quite clear that turning back the clock and getting the work re-done professionally was not going to be an option in the OP's mind. As I wrote to him, undertaking the work without an understanding of how and RCD works (and making a mistake as a result) is clearly far from ideal, but there was no realistic option to helping the OP on this occasion.

Having said that, I have, for example, seen a good few 'competent' electricians suggest that a 30 mA RCD limits current flow (e.g. through a human body) to 30 mA - so I would similarly question whether they should be doing electrical work!

Kind Regards, John.

If you belive that installing a CU is just a case of fixing the box to a wall and connecting 2 ends of the feed together with whatever final circuits he has installed, then yes the job is more-or-less-complete.

However, this installation could be lethal. There is a reason we test.

The fact the light comes in just means there is a supply. We don't know what will happen if a fault occurs. As for the reference to electricians, that serves no purpose in this thread. The test on an RCD is done with a suitable tester, not by somebody cuttiing a cable.

 

[bernardgreen]

You are advocating a lower standard. Being a DIYER does not absolve this guy from the need to test. When he posted he had an incomplete circuit. Now it has electricity flowing, but we have NO IDEA if it's safe.

I am NOT advocating a lower standard. I am not pleading for a lower standard to be acceptable.

What I am saying is that as the DIYer is intent on doing the task then it is better to try and raise the standard of the work he or she does by offering advice and reasons for that advice to the DIYer in the hope that they will raise the standard of the work they do.

If the advice to "not do it because you are ignorant" is given in a bombastic way then the DIYer will not listen to the advice. If the reasons for having to change the way the work is done is provided to the DIYer then they may take it on board and improve.

 

[gadget300]

On the subject of regs.....


I'll not be trying to sell in the near future and so the certification isn't an absolute must. .

You have installed a new circuit - certification should be produced AND building control notified. Just because you a know a little and might "get away with it" doesn't justify you are breaking the law. The fact you havent done any tests could also mean the installation is dangerous - just cause it works doesnt mean its safe.

 

[JohnW2]

...In the case of this thread, it was apparent that the job had more-or-less been completed, so it was quite clear that turning back the clock and getting the work re-done professionally was not going to be an option in the OP's mind. ....

If you belive that installing a CU is just a case of fixing the box to a wall and connecting 2 ends of the feed together with whatever final circuits he has installed, then yes the job is more-or-less-complete.

I was, as I'm sure you really understand, talking about the 'physical' work and I can but refer to my words which you have cited in bold red text above - if you seriously believe that the OP was ever going to do anything other than get the installation working himself (by obtaining advice or, failing that, by trial and error), you must have had very different encounters with human nature than I have!

However, this installation could be lethal. There is a reason we test. The fact the light comes in just means there is a supply. We don't know what will happen if a fault occurs.

I agree entirely, but again can but refer to my words which you have cited in bold red text above.

As for the reference to electricians, that serves no purpose in this thread. The test on an RCD is done with a suitable tester, not by somebody cuttiing a cable.

It is relevant if one says (as I did, to the OP) that a person who doesn't understand how an RCD works should not really be installing one, since there shouldn't be one rule for non-electricians and a different one for electricians - my comment therefore applies as much to electricians' as to non-electricians. I certainly wouldn't let an 'electrician' who knew how to use an RCD tester but didn't know how an RCD works anywhere near my electrical installation.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was, as I'm sure you really understand, talking about the 'physical' work and I can but refer to my words which you have cited in bold red text above - if you seriously believe that the OP was ever going to do anything other than get the installation working himself (by obtaining advice or, failing that, by trial and error), you must have had very different encounters with human nature than I have!

If you advise him to stop messing with things he doesn't understand, and get an electrician, and he chooses to ignore that advice, you are not complicit in him continuing to mess with things he doesn't understand.

If you give him any other advice, or instructions on what to do, you are complicit.

 

[JohnW2]

If you advise him to stop messing with things he doesn't understand, and get an electrician, and he chooses to ignore that advice, you are not complicit in him continuing to mess with things he doesn't understand. If you give him any other advice, or instructions on what to do, you are complicit.

Asking a question inevitably indicates a lack of knowledge and/or understanding. If you believe that every question should be answered by advising that the person should not be messing with something (s)he needs to ask questions about, you might as well close this forum immediately.

I have said before that "I won't always be here", for a host of reasons, not the least being that thinking about matters electrical is but a tiny part of my life. I think that time may be approaching, because I really am coming to tire of the attitudes adopted by some people here. I certainly respect the fact that there will be some who believe that electrical DIY should not be encouraged or assisted, maybe not even allowed, but such people should not become involved in DIY forums - indeed, they should perhaps campaign for such forums to be outlawed. Even if they feel obliged to participate so that they can 'discourage' DIYers from undertaking certain work, there are ways that could be done which would be far more courteous, less intimidating, and less damaging to the forum, than some of what we see.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[bernardgreen]

If you give him any other advice, or instructions on what to do, you are complicit.

I believe you would not be considered complicit if the advice given included good reasons why the DIYer should follow the advice and not do the work as a DIY project.