Moving consumer unit

[thomp1983]

Hi,

In the house were about to buy the consumer unit will need moving so it's on the reverse side of the wall its currently mounted on,

The current unit is a wylex cu with dual rcd with plastic casing, the cu has 4 spare slots. To move the unit will we be required to have it upgraded to a metal enclosed unit to meet the current regs or will the electrician just be able to relocate what we currently have?

Thanks
Chris

 

[SUNRAY]

If the existing CU isn't compliant with latest regs I dont know why there's a question. I'd automatically put in a CU which is fully compliant.

I'd discuss with your electrician, he may be happy with fitting a new Wylex case and re-using the existing RCD'd & MCB's.

 

[JohnW2]

If the existing CU isn't compliant with latest regs I dont know why there's a question. I'd automatically put in a CU which is fully compliant.

That would obviously be the case if one were 'putting in a CU' (i.e. replacing the existing one), but is it necessarily the same if one is merely moving an existing one?

Would you say the same if the CU were being moved just a few inches alone the (same side of) the same wall, rather than to the other side of the wall?

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

If the circuits need disconnecting and reconnecting and or extending then I would treat it exactly the same as installing a new CU and only fit an up to date unit which complies with the current regulations and then issue an EIC and notify.

If it was just being moved a few inches and did not involve retermination then I would probably advise a new unit but not insist on it. (Assuming the existing unit is in reasonable condition / fairly compliant)

 

[JohnW2]

If the circuits need disconnecting and reconnecting and or extending then I would treat it exactly the same as installing a new CU and only fit an up to date unit which complies with the current regulations and then issue an EIC and notify.

Fair enough - but that is presumably an individual judgement. As you say, if you did 'replace' the CU, the job would become notifiable, since 'replacement of' (but not 'moving of') a CU is one of the very few things which remains notifiable in England.

If it was just being moved a few inches and did not involve retermination then I would probably advise a new unit but not insist on it. (Assuming the existing unit is in reasonable condition / fairly compliant)

Again, fair enough - but, again, individual judgement would come even more into that one, not the least to decide what did, and did not, constituter 'a few inches'. Do I take it that you agree that such a move, if done, would not be notifiable (in England)?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

I suppose the plastic CU could be reinstalled in some kind of steel cabinet.

 

[JohnW2]

I suppose the plastic CU could be reinstalled in some kind of steel cabinet.

It could - if, like SUNRAY and RF, one felt that, if moved (with existing circuits) it had to comply with the 'non-combustible' requirement.

Kind Regards, john

 

[JohnD]

or if the requirement has any sense to it.

 

[JohnW2]

or if the requirement has any sense to it.

Sure, but I suppose most electricians have little choice but to comply with (their interpretation of) the regs.

For those who do feel they have to do that, we're back to another oft-discussed issue of 'individual judgement' (one could say 'interpretation of the regs', but there isn't really anything about this issue to interpret!) - namely how much one has to do to/with an existing circuit/CU/whatever before the regs 'require' it to be brought into compliance with current regs.

As in the case being discussed, does merely 'moving' something invoke that requirement? RF obviously feels, in the case of a CU, that it does if the 'moving' requires the something to be 'disconnected' and then 're-connected' - but what if it were a socket on a circuit without RCD protection, or a plastic light fitting or switch on a circuit with no CPC? Indeed, what if, rather than moving such a socket or light fitting/switch one was merely replacing it because it was faulty? - that would still require 'disconnection and re-connection', but I suspect that many would say that such a replacement did not require the whole circuit (or even just the item in question on that circuit) to be brought into compliance with current regs, wouldn't they?

I think there's very little 'black and white' about this, and that 'opinions will vary' (fairly widely)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

If the circuits need disconnecting and reconnecting and or extending then I would treat it exactly the same as installing a new CU and only fit an up to date unit which complies with the current regulations and then issue an EIC and notify.

Fair enough - but that is presumably an individual judgement. As you say, if you did 'replace' the CU, the job would become notifiable, since 'replacement of' (but not 'moving of') a CU is one of the very few things which remains notifiable in England.

How would extending wiring and fitting a CU in a room where there wasn't one, regardless of whether it's a new or old CU possibly be counted as non notifiable?

If it was just being moved a few inches and did not involve retermination then I would probably advise a new unit but not insist on it. (Assuming the existing unit is in reasonable condition / fairly compliant)

Agreed

Again, fair enough - but, again, individual judgement would come even more into that one, not the least to decide what did, and did not, constituter 'a few inches'. Do I take it that you agree that such a move, if done, would not be notifiable (in England)?

Kind Regards, John

Agreed. I did just this a couple of years back with a CU in a garage mounted on the same backbpoard as the meter and cutout, all of the circuits ran up the wall in trunking and turned left still in trunking. The supply came up through the floor, turned left for 2 feet and rose up into the cutout. After bricking up the window I was able to move the whole board 2 feet up the wall and to the right where the window was.

The only electrical part of it was moving the the earth rod, which was where the new door opening went in.

For that job the tests were done but recorded a EICR

 

[JohnW2]

How would extending wiring and fitting a CU in a room where there wasn't one, regardless of whether it's a new or old CU possibly be counted as non notifiable?

It is for those who write the legislation to make it as clear, or unclear, as they wish. As it has been written (in England), the only thing that is notifiable is "replacement of a CU" - so, as I said, it is down to the individual to decide how to interpret that. In terms of everyday English, if I asked someone to "replace" a switch, socket, extractor fan, immersion, sink, boiler, washing machine or whatever (or even a CU ), I would expect them to remove the existing one and install a new (or, at least, different) one, wouldn't you?

That might seem silly (albeit all the fault of the legislators!) but, when it comes to legal things it is "what the law actually says" that matters. However, that aside, the issue is nothing like as straightforward as some of you seem to be making out....

....RF seemed to think that merely disconnecting and then reconnecting circuits to a CU was enough to constitute a 'replacement', requiring it to be compliant with current regs and also notifiable. However, I disconnect and reconnect (all of the) circuits from my CU whenever I test my installation - but I wouldn't think that anyone would seriously suggest that such might require me to upgrade the CU to comply with current regs, let alone to 'notify' my testing!

....Both RF and yourself also seem to feel that 'extending the wiring' is also an issue. However, it is very clear that (in England), provided only that no 'new circuit' is created (and that it's not in the zones of a bathroom), extending any circuit or cable is NOT notifiable - and there's nothing to say that that does not apply to extending circuits/cables at the CU end just as much as at the other end (or anywhere in between).

What is your feeling about replacement of devices (MCB, RCD, RCBO, Main Switch or even SPD!) - do you regard that as 'notifiable'? ... and then what if it were many or most (or even all) of the devices? Anticipating your probable answers, where exactly would you 'draw lines'? As I've said, little of this is 'black and white'.

Agreed ... Agreed. I did just this a couple of years back with a CU in a garage mounted on the same backbpoard as the meter and cutout, all of the circuits ran up the wall in trunking and turned left still in trunking. The supply came up through the floor, turned left for 2 feet and rose up into the cutout. After bricking up the window I was able to move the whole board 2 feet up the wall and to the right where the window was. ... The only electrical part of it was moving the the earth rod, which was where the new door opening went in.

Fair enough - but what if, perhaps as a matter of convenience, you had disconnected all of the cables before you relocated the CU and then reconnected them - would you then think this had turned the non-notifiable job into a notifiable one?

... For that job the tests were done but recorded a EICR

That takes me back to the first point I made enough. If you undertook tests as for an EICR, you presumably disconnected and then reconnected many/most/all of the circuits in order to undertake the testing - so, even if you hadn't disconnected/reconnected the circuits as part of the 'CU move', you would subsequently have done it, anyway!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Fair enough - but that is presumably an individual judgement. As you say, if you did 'replace' the CU, the job would become notifiable, since 'replacement of' (but not 'moving of') a CU is one of the very few things which remains notifiable in England.
Again, fair enough - but, again, individual judgement would come even more into that one, not the least to decide what did, and did not, constituter 'a few inches'. Do I take it that you agree that such a move, if done, would not be notifiable (in England)?

Kind Regards, John

If the move can be made without retermination, it would not be notifiable.

 

[Aragorn84]

I guess the other point here... is the cost of a new board is pretty small. Most of the cost is labour on a board swap, and your paying that for moving it all anyway, so why not just fit a nice new compliant up-to-date board in the process?

My interpretation lies along the lines of Johns. If you've agreed that retermination is not notifiable (as you need to reterminate for MANY different jobs, and none of these are notifiable) and physically moving the board is not notifiable, then moving and reterminating also isnt notifiable, IMO.

Ofcourse, it comes down to the spark doing the job, arguing with them if their interpretation differs to your own isnt going to make them change their mind. So either replace the board if thats what they want to do, or find a spark whos happy just to move what you have if you want to save the small additional cost of the new board.

Personally, i'd take the opportunity to renew it all, and fit a new up to spec board with RCBO's throughout.

 

[EFLImpudence]

According to the dictionary moving the CU would not be replacing it but putting it back in the same place would be.

 

[SUNRAY]

It is for those who write the legislation to make it as clear, or unclear, as they wish. As it has been written (in England), the only thing that is notifiable is "replacement of a CU" - so, as I said, it is down to the individual to decide how to interpret that. In terms of everyday English, if I asked someone to "replace" a switch, socket, extractor fan, immersion, sink, boiler, washing machine or whatever (or even a CU ), I would expect them to remove the existing one and install a new (or, at least, different) one, wouldn't you?

That might seem silly (albeit all the fault of the legislators!) but, when it comes to legal things it is "what the law actually says" that matters. However, that aside, the issue is nothing like as straightforward as some of you seem to be making out....

....RF seemed to think that merely disconnecting and then reconnecting circuits to a CU was enough to constitute a 'replacement', requiring it to be compliant with current regs and also notifiable. However, I disconnect and reconnect (all of the) circuits from my CU whenever I test my installation - but I wouldn't think that anyone would seriously suggest that such might require me to upgrade the CU to comply with current regs, let alone to 'notify' my testing!

....Both RF and yourself also seem to feel that 'extending the wiring' is also an issue. However, it is very clear that (in England), provided only that no 'new circuit' is created (and that it's not in the zones of a bathroom), extending any circuit or cable is NOT notifiable - and there's nothing to say that that does not apply to extending circuits/cables at the CU end just as much as at the other end (or anywhere in between).

What is your feeling about replacement of devices (MCB, RCD, RCBO, Main Switch or even SPD!) - do you regard that as 'notifiable'? ... and then what if it were many or most (or even all) of the devices? Anticipating your probable answers, where exactly would you 'draw lines'? As I've said, little of this is 'black and white'.
Fair enough - but what if, perhaps as a matter of convenience, you had disconnected all of the cables before you relocated the CU and then reconnected them - would you then think this had turned the non-notifiable job into a notifiable one?
That takes me back to the first point I made enough. If you undertook tests as for an EICR, you presumably disconnected and then reconnected many/most/all of the circuits in order to undertake the testing - so, even if you hadn't disconnected/reconnected the circuits as part of the 'CU move', you would subsequently have done it, anyway!!

Kind Regards, John

I'm not disputing there is confusion or lack of detail.
I'm not saying extending a cable is problematic.
My statement is: Before; a room without a CU. After; a room witha CU. What part of that doesn't come under provision of a CU?