Multimeter sampling rate

Well, that's obviously the bottom line of 'what matters' but you will obviously know whether or not that is the case without making any measurements.
Not as simple as that. There are different type of cranks: instant, delayed, repeated, failed. Knowing the volt range of each of these is useful in working out if you could leave it be, take action in the upcoming weekend, take action immediately, or call for a tow/jump-start. If the crank fails but the range is good, then you can refuse the breakdown guy trying to sell you a battery and taking your battery to sell to the next guy on the call out queue.


When you say 'maintenance', do you simply mean 'recharging', or are you talking of something more complex than that?
Maintenance is whatever your preferred method to return the battery to the optimum state. This could be trickle charging (I use this), pulse charging, over-volting aka equalising, injection of chemicals then charge (I used this in the past), or do nothing, etc.


The ultimate indicator of a battery which has become 'non-viable' is presumably that it will not start the engine when newly charged and/or when it's ability to start the engine after a charge rapidly disappears.
Knowing the volt range for that will give your advanced warning on when the end will arrive so that you are prepared with a new battery, a new addition to your breakdown cover, etc.


I suppose that's true, provided that the batteries are very similar.
Yes, batteries are very similar. They all have an internal resistance that modifies the MIN volt during crank. All batteries will reach the end of service (requiring maintenance or replacement) when the MIN volt cannot meet the engine's needs.
 
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You interest me. Late 60's early 70's I was very interested with the lead acid battery, the jell battery used on radios in the second world war were still available and working, and it seems traction batteries used with milk floats were expected to last 25 years, it was only the car lead acid which seemed to have a short life.

It was the attempt to get high amps which reduced the battery life. There have been many attempts to extend the life, use of anatomy to hold the active material on the grid, then reduce it to stop gassing, and then the valve regulated lead acid also called absorbed glass mat.

The main problem now is over charging, once electrolyte or the water in the electrolyte is lost, there is no way to replace it, mounting in the boot helps, out of the engine heat, helps, but in the main it is engine management controlled charging.

This however only works if the car is in regular use, recharging a battery from mains, is diffrent, normally set around voltage, but fixed voltage is no good, need to equalise the cells, so pulse charging is main way, but even that can cause damage.

But it is clear to convert sulphate into acid takes time, there are no short cuts.
I don't think you have scientifically verified your beliefs. A lot of it are myths pick up from the internet. The video I posted in the battery thread contained a lot of experimental evidence on how lead acids worked.

Lead acid fails for these reasons: 1, shedding of materials (mentioned in that video); 2, increase of internal resistance; 3, sulfation blocking charge (mentioned in that video)

Shedding of materials you can do nothing about. My first hand observation is that cheap battery shed a lot more. High quality battery shed very little and lasts longer. Shedding will result in physical break up of the plates. The shed material can also cause short circuit in the affected cell. Even with shedding, cheap batteries can last significantly longer than warranty period provided they are not affected by other failure reason stated above.

New lead acids batteries have Internal Resistance of 3 to 7 mOhms. I saw a video of an expert from a chinese battery manufacturer saying the battery needs to be replaced when the IR is doubled from new. My first hand experience says the IR can be as high as 3x from new and will still give enough power to crank with hesitation. The chinese expert wasn't far off from my own observations.

The video I posted claimed that sulfation blocking charge was because of inadequate charge voltage to reverse salfation. The standard charge voltage of 14.x V was designed to restrict battery life. The battery must reach 16.2V to reverse all sulfation. Car alternators were not designed for that. My first hand experience was that I accidentally charged the battery to 16.x V using a solar panel. The battery couldn't be charged to a higher voltage than that (this correlated to the claims in that video). This makes overcharging a myth as far as I am concerned. I only managed to charge to 16.x V for one summer and unable to repeat it. Not sure this was because of the battery or the cheap china solar panel.

I had dumped a lot of chemicals into the battery over the years making the electrolyte level rather high. My overcharging the battery did not cause noticeable loss of electrolyte. I wanted the loss but never got it. So, to me, electrolyte loss is a myth.
 
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Yes a RB106 and RB108 dynamo regulator is set to 16 volt open circuit. But at that time we did not have AGM batteries.

Much of what you say was considered true, but the AGM battery altered all that.
 
I am trying to run my coming up to 19 year old factory battery to infinity.
I know I'm a spoilsport, I would buy a new battery instead of a new multimeter



I got an Aneng multimeter for next to nothing off aliexpress a while ago, it's 'ok', very lightweight, the cables are starting to crack, and comparing it to my other 20yr old basic multimeter, they give slightly different voltage readings, so one (or both!) must be slightly out.
 
Not as simple as that. There are different type of cranks: instant, delayed, repeated, failed. Knowing the volt range of each of these is useful in working out if you could leave it be, take action in the upcoming weekend, take action immediately, or call for a tow/jump-start.
If being able measure 'the numbers' would help you with such decisions, that's great.

As I said, my personal experience of car batteries which are near the end of life is that they will often start the engine easily (with the process seeming/sounding 'healthy') immediately after the batters has been charged as much as one can, but that the battery 'won't even try' a few hours or days later.
If the crank fails but the range is good, then you can refuse the breakdown guy trying to sell you a battery and taking your battery to sell to the next guy on the call out queue.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the range is good". If you're talking about a situation in which the voltage reaching the starter motor during an attempted start-up is adequate, yet the motor doesn't turn, I'm not sure how that would arise (other than with a duff starter motor). Perhaps you could explain what you mean?
Maintenance is whatever your preferred method to return the battery to the optimum state. This could be ....
I'm aware of many of the options. I was asking which you had in mind - in particular how 'knowing the numbers' would help you decide which was required, and when.
Knowing the volt range for that will give your advanced warning on when the end will arrive so that you are prepared with a new battery, a new addition to your breakdown cover, etc.
I'm again not totally clear as to what you mean by 'volt range'. With an appropriate meter, you would be able to measure the battery voltage during successful start-ups, but I'm not sure how you would determine the threshold below which start-up would not be successful - or, indeed, know how quickly (or slowly) that threshold would be reached during a period of non-use.

Kind Regards, John
 
New lead acids batteries have Internal Resistance of 3 to 7 mOhms. I saw a video of an expert from a chinese battery manufacturer saying the battery needs to be replaced when the IR is doubled from new.
Those numbers somewhat surprise me. Even if it started at 7 mΩ, 'double that" would (assuming zero resistance of connecting cables) still allow about 857 A to flow from a 12V battery, which surely be far more than enough for any car starter motor? .
My first hand experience says the IR can be as high as 3x from new and will still give enough power to crank with hesitation. The chinese expert wasn't far off from my own observations.
Even 3x would still allow about 571 A, which again I would have thought would be a lot more than enough.

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes a RB106 and RB108 dynamo regulator is set to 16 volt open circuit. But at that time we did not have AGM batteries.

Much of what you say was considered true, but the AGM battery altered all that.
Car alternators are 14.x V for lead acid. I have no experience of AGM to comment on it. But I would speculate 16.2V is required by the lead acid chemistry and AGM is just a variation of lead acid. AGM is capable of supplying energy at a faster rate. Therefore, it is able to absorb energy at a faster rate. My assertion would be that it requires the same 16.2V but amps should be reduced to delay the onset of electrolysis gassing when the battery is fully charged. Are there actual data of AGM lasting longer than lead acid batteries? My speculation would be no. The battery life would be restricted to the same 3 to 5 years to guarantee a certain level of profit for the manufacturer. The chosen life span is a commercial consideration only.


I know I'm a spoilsport, I would buy a new battery instead of a new multimeter
As Dr Evil would say: how about NOOO? I play with the battery for fun. I have a new battery. To extend the life of the new ebay refurbished/recycled battery to infinity, I put the old battery back in the car spring to autum. If I wasn't playing with the battery I would have no reason to get a meter with MAX/MIN feature. I could run my beginner meter to infinity. Like your experience, my leads also failed. So, I had some cheap amazon leads from many years ago. Amazon was once cheap. On the whole, not any more, but with occasional surprising nuggets of bargains.


As I said, my personal experience of car batteries which are near the end of life is that they will often start the engine easily (with the process seeming/sounding 'healthy') immediately after the batters has been charged as much as one can, but that the battery 'won't even try' a few hours or days later.
My batteries are subject to maintenance, yours are not. Hence the different observations.


I'm not sure what you mean by "the range is good". If you're talking about a situation in which the voltage reaching the starter motor during an attempted start-up is adequate, yet the motor doesn't turn, I'm not sure how that would arise (other than with a duff starter motor). Perhaps you could explain what you mean?
You got one of the scenarios. Another would be you haven't driven the car for an extended period and the battery died. The reading taken before this length of time would remain good, with some degradations, and you would not need a new battery from the breakdown guy. So, knowing the readings makes all the difference.


I'm aware of many of the options. I was asking which you had in mind - in particular how 'knowing the numbers' would help you decide which was required, and when.
I said which I used. I believe people can use whichever method they like best so long as it works. Knowing the numbers will allow you to act accordingly. If you are MIN 8V, you may be able to limp a bit. But if you are down to MIN 7V, you had better be prepared to beg a stranger for a jump start, bringing a set of leads would then make major sense.


I'm again not totally clear as to what you mean by 'volt range'. With an appropriate meter, you would be able to measure the battery voltage during successful start-ups, but I'm not sure how you would determine the threshold below which start-up would not be successful - or, indeed, know how quickly (or slowly) that threshold would be reached during a period of non-use.
A volt range would be 13.3V - 10.xV, 12.1V - 9.xV, 12.3v - 8.xV, 13.8V - 8.xV. One of these is on shaky ground.


Those numbers somewhat surprise me. Even if it started at 7 mΩ, 'double that" would (assuming zero resistance of connecting cables) still allow about 857 A to flow from a 12V battery, which surely be far more than enough for any car starter motor? .
I started with 15 mΩ with my infinity battery. I have no idea what the as-new IR was for the battery. It may well have been 7mΩ, or it could have been 3mΩ. Hence the usefulness of readings. The ebay battery was 4mΩ and fully charged when it arrived, which was within the expected as new range. Armed with readings, I knew I had a bargain instantly. The actual performance as a winter battery did not disappoint, and it's one size smaller than spec for my car. I was intending to share that battery with a smaller car that used a battery yet 2 sizes smaller. Both cars are driveway queens with the smaller one more so.
 
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AGM or VRLA have been around for a long time, used extensively in intruder alarms, chair lifts, moblity scooters, and emergency lighting. While I was working for the council so pre-1980 we had inspection touches using these batteries.

I know the pair used in my mothers and father-in-laws stair lifts had a very different life, one lasted the life of stair lift, clearly a regulated charger of some type, the other lasted around 4 years when used every day, 2 years once only used once in a blue moon, it was clear the battery charger was over charging the batteries when not being used, I was on the one lasting only 2 years showing around 32 volt on a 24 volt (two batteries) system. So 16 volt clearly was too high.

The stand alone charger I have designed for those batteries has the following setup.
If the voltage is below 3.8 V or above 15 V, the battery will not be charged. The display briefly shows the error message "Err".
Below 7.3 volt it assumes it is a 6 volt battery.
Up to 10.5 volt it uses a pulse charge.
Up to 12.8 volt charges at 3.8 amp
Up to 14.1 volt charges at 3 amp
Up to 14.4 volt charges at 0.8 amp
Then drops to 0.1 amp charge, which in the main will not maintain the battery voltage. So at 12.8 volt it returns to 0.8 amp charge rate. This means the battery gets a pulse every so often,
1673618927275.png
how often depends on the battery
1673618990086.png
once I see a patten like either of these, I assume the battery is charged. Good (nearly new) batteries will stop charging altogether, there is a second option for batteries under 12 Ah and also one for when very cold.

1673619257667.png
this is the display from my jump starter, with 12 Ah battery, and a wallmart charger, basic same idea as other chargers, and the mobility scooter with yet another charger gives similar patten.

The CTEK range of battery chargers are slightly different, they can return to full charge rate, and start at a lower base voltage, but do not do 6 volt, and should a cell go short circuit they can cause hydrogen sulphide to be generated (bad egg smell).

To have a charger like in my laptop which monitors the battery very carefully can increase battery life, the engine management in the modern car does the same thing, when we change a battery, we must tell the engine management what battery has been fitted, and using an external charger we must charge from the point under the bonnet, not direct to boot, so the engine management can monitor the charge rate.

It become clear when the battery is low, as the stop/start at junctions stops working, if this happens, then we put the car on a mains charger to top up the battery.

The big thing is, we can charge an open vented lead acid with a charger designed for an AGM battery, but we can't use a charger designed for an open vented battery on the AGM type. It will wreck them.

For years I looked after fork lift batteries, it was a regular job topping them up with de-ionised water, the stage charger would charge at around 40 amp until the voltage reached 16 volt per 6 cells, then drop to around 4 amp for a set time, there were variations some chargers had more stages, same with narrow boats, milk floats, and early golf trolleys, the problem with AGM is speed to recharge, the mobility scooter takes around 24 hours to fully recharge the batteries, where my e-bike with modern batteries can recharge in 4 hours.

To recharge fork lift batteries in 8 hours, i.e. within a shift, they had to be over charged, we had to regularly add water. Also sulphur hardens over time, so longer a battery has been left discharged, the longer it takes to charge.

Buses and Milk tankers often have Nickel Iron batteries, same alternator was used, but when you watched the ammeter it would go to 60 amp on starting and stay there for a few miles, then drop to near zero. The buses had alternators with current control, the CAV 208 and a special 440 regulator with M1 and M2 terminals which went across the shunt resistor.

There have been so many specials, Grove cranes had duel output 12 and 24 volt alternators, with a three phase transformer built in, old bus dynamos had bucking coils to stop them over charging. Tractors often had a sensor under battery to reduce charge if they got too hot, special regulator but standard ACR alternator.

Also of course brush-less, Paris Rhone and Delco made them, but very different design. I was an Auto Electrician many years before I moved to mains supplies, and I have seen so many odd ideas, including 8 volt CAT batteries for the 6 volt donkey engine start tractors, as found on the 583 pipe layer, the D8 made same time were likely long gone, but a pipe layer did not do much work, so still had donkey engine starters, had to get de-compressor and donkey engine engage leavers in right order or could break your arm.

But showing my age, I remember working in the Sahara in the early 80's.
 
My batteries are subject to maintenance, yours are not.
You assume, and assume incorrectly.
Hence the different observations.
Are you not familiar with a near-end-of-life battery which will start a car without difficulty immediately after it has been charged/'maintained', but which loses its charge very rapidly thereafter?
You got one of the scenarios. Another would be you haven't driven the car for an extended period and the battery died.
It's not really 'another scenario' - it's one I keep mentioning, except that, as I've said, when a battery is on its last legs, the required period of non-use is sometimes only hours or days, not "an extended period".
The reading taken before this length of time would remain good, with some degradations, and you would not need a new battery from the breakdown guy. So, knowing the readings makes all the difference.
In the sort of situation I've described, I would have thought that (certainly for me) the primary determinant of whether or not one needs a new battery is the speed with which it loses its charge whilst being unused - most of us wouldn't want a battery which has to be 'maintained' every week! I can't really see how having 'a good reading' at the start tells one how rapidly that 'good reading' is going to change over the ensuing hours, days or weeks.
I said which I used. ...
OK, but trickle charging is not rocket science - it's probably what the majority of people would do with an ageing/iffy battery which they wanted to continue using.
I believe people can use whichever method they like best so long as it works. Knowing the numbers will allow you to act accordingly. If you are MIN 8V, you may be able to limp a bit. But if you are down to MIN 7V, you had better be prepared to beg a stranger for a jump start, bringing a set of leads would then make major sense.
There will obviously be a threshold of 'on load' (starter load) battery voltage below which the car won't start, but I have no idea what that voltage would be (for any particular car). However, I don't know about yours, but my ears will tell me if starting is getting 'marginal' (i.e. the on-load voltage is approaching the threshold), even though I don't know what that voltage actually is.

In any event, as I keep saying, particularly if the battery has been recently 'maintained, knowing what the on-load voltage is today would tell me nothing about what it will be 'tomorrow' or 'next week'. It almost sounds as if you do not expoerience the issue of aging batteries which 'rapidly lose charge'.
A volt range would be 13.3V - 10.xV, 12.1V - 9.xV, 12.3v - 8.xV, 13.8V - 8.xV. One of these is on shaky ground.
Sure, as above, there must be a threshold of on-load voltage below which the car wont start, but I don't know what number would represent 'shaky ground' for my car. I do, however, know what the starter motor's efforts sounds like as I approach that threshold.
I started with 15 mΩ with my infinity battery. I have no idea what the as-new IR was for the battery ... . It may well have been 7mΩ, or it could have been 3mΩ. Hence the usefulness of readings
Again, internal resistance is surely far from everything, since there is also the question of how long vthe battery maintains its charge - a problem which you don't seem to experience

Kind Regards, John
 
The stand alone charger I have designed for those batteries has the following setup.
If the voltage is below 3.8 V or above 15 V, the battery will not be charged. The display briefly shows the error message "Err".
Below 7.3 volt it assumes it is a 6 volt battery.
Up to 10.5 volt it uses a pulse charge.
Up to 12.8 volt charges at 3.8 amp
Up to 14.1 volt charges at 3 amp
Up to 14.4 volt charges at 0.8 amp
Then drops to 0.1 amp charge, which in the main will not maintain the battery voltage.
If lead acid chemistry of a 12V battery requires 16.2V to completely desulfate, charging it to 15V would be as good as useless. 16.2V is the final state of the battery voltages and not the charge voltage. Basically you went to all the trouble of complexity and getting not a sliver of benefit back.

I suggest you go back to the drawing board and try again. The charge voltage needs to be at 18-20V or even higher. The current will determine the rate of electrolysis (gassing). I expect some amount of electrolysis to be always present. What you need to do is to keep that to the minimum. A trickle charger would have minimum electrolysis but will take forever to charge. The optimum practical solution is to accept a higher electrolysis in part of the charging cycle.

A better measure of battery charge state can be done using a hydrometer. If you are able to integrate a hydro-sensor into the charger, that will make it work better. Using voltage to determine the charge state is an extremely poor approximation. A pure electrical solution may also be possible. As the charge state changes, so would the internal resistance. The IR could act as a charge state gauge.
 
You assume, and assume incorrectly.
My assumptions are correct. From the description of your experience, it's apparent you were using a non-effective maintenance procedure, and so nothing worked. Like everybody else, you would have taken the battery off the car and charged it up using your "smart", "pulsing", "doing a sing and dance", "blah blah" charger. But, it was as effective as if you had used a potato as a charger. When something is not working, you need to stop insisting it "SHOULD" work.

What did work for me was using Battaid. I was so amazed by it, I cleared out the amazon seller's entire stock. 10's of years later, I still have quite a bit left. But I don't use them any more. They will raise the electrolyte level because of the added material volume. Also they will eventually hit a brick wall and stop being effective. What I do now is off-car trickle charging, and in-car solar panelling. There's not enough light in the winter. So I rotate out the old and tired infinity battery to give it some winter nursing. It goes back in the car in the spring. Swapping the batteries a couple of times a year is acceptable even to my lazy bones. In return, I get guaranteed non-interruption to my ride.
 
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My assumptions are correct. From the description of your experience, it's apparent you were using a non-effective maintenance procedure, and so nothing worked...
I'm not sure why you say that, but perhaps my description was not clear/comprehensive enough ...
...... What I do now is off-car trickle charging, and in-car solar panelling.
That's not far off what I do if/when I am trying to persist with an aged/marginal battery - no in-car solar charging, but constant trickle charging whenever the car is 'at home' and not being used. However, in my experience, there comes a time when the battery does not retain its charge for a useful period of time after the trickle charging is switched off (e.g. when 'away from home).

Kind Regards, John
 
If it's not working for you then you are doing it wrong or using the wrong equipment. My procedure works fine for 2 cars. I am currently doing 1 mile trips almost daily, with a long gap before the return. The ebay battery works fine even though I don't think 1 mile is enough to recharge the battery after the start. The solar panel adds a few drips, but can't be much.
 

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