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Need some advice on a EICR

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by ss81, 28 Oct 2020.

  1. ss81

    ss81

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    Hi,

    I wonder if any electricians can offer some advice? I rent out a 2 bedroom flat that has just needed a EICR test. The property was built in 2005* and the electrics have not been altered.

    I have just received a report back from the letting agent's electrician and it has failed on the following points that I would like a second opinion on, as it does not seem right to me. They have also included a draft quote to pass the EICR that consists of a new consumer unit and smoke alarm for £1173.60!

    The C2s are:

    Additional protection shall be for all low voltage circuits serving or passing through zones 1 and 2 of the location by the installation of one or more RCDs having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1. Reg 701.411.3.3 circuit 1

    The lighting circuit does not have RCD protection. It was installed in 1999, which I believe is before these regs came in and therefore would be a C3, and only a C2 if the lighting circuit is altered now. Would this be the case?

    Additional RCD protection is required to circuits supplying outdoor equipment due to lack of other additional protection. Reg 415.1.1 circuit 10

    This one is really confusing me as it's a 3rd floor flat with no outside space? Any idea? If you did somehow hang out a window with a drill you would use a socket from the ring main that is behind an RCD.

    Consumer unit is not fire rated Reg 421.1.201, 526.5
    Should this be a C2? Looking around on this forum and google, it seems its' a C3 really. Also on my report it is a C2 on the Observations page, but on the Inspection schedule page it's a C3? This is the big one, as it means a new consumer unit (apparently!) and is most of the £1173 quote!) That's on top of the £192 for the test.

    Smoke detectors have expired
    Guess that one is fair enough!

    Hope to hear some thoughts on this. Thank you for taking the time to read the above. I can include the report if it helps.

    Kind regards,
    Sarah

    *EDIT: updated flat built from 1999 to 2005. It's newer than I realised.
     
    Last edited: 28 Oct 2020
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  3. ericmark

    ericmark

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    It's not right, but it is the way people read the English within the regulations rather than the regulations, each time the regulations are up graded we get at the start a comment like this {quote]BS 7671:2008 Requirements for Electrical Installations was issued on 1st January 2008 and is intended to come into effect on 1st July 2008. Installations designed after 30st June 2008 are to comply with BS 7671:2008.
    The Regulations apply to the design. erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations. Existing installations that have been installed in accordance with earlier editions of the Regulations may not comply with this edition in every respect. This does not necessarily mean that they are unsafe for continued use or require upgrading.[/quote]However clearly to use that info the inspector must be given all the preceding paperwork as otherwise he does not know when things were done.

    The EICR have a phrase "Potentially Dangerous" and clearly all 230 volt (low voltage) is potentially dangerous, but for the inspector he has a problem, the EICR was designed to simply tell the owner the condition, it was never designed as a legal document, however CENELEC harmonization documents HSE documents, and others are combined into BS 7671 hence the phrase "does not necessarily" as if required by a law then it is necessary and to put it simple we don't know what all these little laws are asking for.

    The main point is you as the landlord should make the property safe for use by the tenants, and where tenants have done to be frank some daft things, the land lady has still been fined, when I bought this house, I found it was still on fuses, to protect my wife and I the fuse board was change for an all RCBO board within 6 months, but as a tenant he does not have the option to fit RCD protection, the bit which seems unfair is the 28 day time limit, as said took me 6 months, but again no one said you must upgrade I did it before anyone put my hand up my back. And really you have 56 days because 28 days before LABC told and they give you another 28 days, or 21 days to complain, and they have to read the report then it seems satisfy themselves the work really needs doing and have to write to you detailing the work required.

    Personally I would say fire detection and prevention is not part of the EICR inspectors remit, although it clearly needs doing, and rest is a C3 only. However it is up to the inspector who does the inspection, you could find another inspector who will not list them as faults, but the big question is should you not be fitting RCD protection for all circuits anyway? I see nothing about plastic CU so fitting RCBO's in non RCD protected circuits may be enough.
     
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  4. chivers67

    chivers67

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    Post a photo of your Consumer Unit, you might be able to get RCBOs for it which you could get an electrician to install for you.
     
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  5. ss81

    ss81

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    Thanks, pics attached

    Annotation 2020-10-28 120113.jpg Annotation 2020-10-28 120113b.jpg
     
  6. chivers67

    chivers67

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    Hi Sarah,

    The Lighting MCBs could be moved onto the RCD module easier enough and the Storage heaters? (circuit 9) don't necessarily need to be on it. I'm sure a half decent electrician could reconfigure that for you at a fairly reasonable price. Probably have New Mains powered Smoke detectors too.

    Chivers

    BTW have you got a clearer shot of the Cert as there appear to be no RCD disconnection times.
     
  7. ss81

    ss81

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    Thanks for the reply.

    Is that the 3rd column from the end? If so, it does not have any disconnection times (is that odd?) which is from the current failed report. The photos of the CU are from a passed report back in 2008, as it's all I have.

    Annotation 2020-10-28 122721.jpg
     
  8. AndyPRK

    AndyPRK

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    Aren't EICR meant to be conducted against the regulators for when they were installed ?
    So I wouldn't expect any C2's if no alteration have been made
     
  9. ericmark

    ericmark

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    Not seen a split CU like that with three sections one for off peak, however the paperwork has missed out tripping time and type of the RCD.
     
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  11. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    No.
     
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  12. ss81

    ss81

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    So does that mean that anyone that has a plastic consumer unit has to get it changed for a metal one? as my report has partly failed on the following with a C2?

    Consumer unit is not fire rated Reg 421.1.201, 526.5
     
  13. ericmark

    ericmark

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    This is how I would see it, but up to the inspector, I personally would say nothing to do with BS 7671, if a item was not potentially dangerous in 1954 then it is only potentially dangerous today if some thing has been damaged or degraded.

    However 1966 we started earthing lights, and there have been a host of changes both requiring more and less RCD outside, earthing window frames (dropped) bonding in bathroom (dropped if RCD protected) RCD on sockets, and RCD on anything using non special cable buried in the wall, no rewireable fuses in charge of ordinary persons, non inflammable consumer units, the list goes on, including items like ELCB-v which are now considered dangerous.

    Now if we compare with cars, and say seat belts, the manufacturer date at which seat belts needed fitting gradually moved earlier and earlier but still not required on a Stanley Steamer even today. And some things may NEED upgrading due to changes in what we use from the house supply, and example is the type B RCD for car charging, and some boilers say they require type A instead of the old type AC. And we can argue NEED until the cows come home, there is debate as to if needed or desirable all the time.

    As yet not heard of a single C2 being given to type AC RCD but if charging even a ebike then it could be debated.

    However the schedule of results has some odd things Live to Live insulation resistance LIM what the heck is that? Same entered for ELI for the off peak, it shows 3 circuits RCD protected with a 30 mA RCD but no tripping times, so why?
     
  14. ericmark

    ericmark

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    This is debated many times, some say no, some say if in an escape route, and some say yes, I would say fire prevention and protection was not part of the EICR that is a separate report made by some one trained in that field.
     
  15. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    No, it just means that the inspection is carried out to the latest regulations - hence the C3, improvement recommended.
     
  16. ss81

    ss81

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    This is a headache, I would have hoped the regs to be clear on the EICRs. Surly this is up for abuse as the inspector is also quoting on the remedial work required to pass the report.
     
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  17. ss81

    ss81

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    I agree that if it is a C3 then it's only recommended, but the report that was produced said that it was a C2 on the Observations page, but on the Inspection schedule page shows it's a C3. Should it be C2 or C3, bearing in mind the consumer unit was installed when the flat was built in 2005?
     
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