EICR Unsatisfactory - FTB

[Chepdi87]

Hi all,

I am a first time buyer and have had a pre-purchase EICR done (since no EICR report was available from the vendor). The new EICR came back as unsatisfactory and the electrician recommended a full rewire.

The house is a 1950s ex-council house which was sold by the council in the early 2000s. The electrician estimated that additions/alterations were made around 6 years ago, though I don't know if that involved a rewire.

The observations in the EICR were as follows:

1. Suppliers main fuse components missing exposed basic insulation (C2)
2. Kitchen downlight not fire rated - connections not enclosed and not earthed (C2)
3. Earth rod not found / accessible for inspection (C2)
4. Gas & Water services not earth bound (C2)
5. Consumer unit has had RCD removed - no RCD protection (C2)
6. Kitchen switch no earth + lounge wall light and centre light no earth (C2)
7. First floor lights no earth (C2)
8. Sockets main house - short circuit neutral/live earth (C2)
9. A tangle of wires, exposed single insulation/live parts above ensuite in loft (C1)
10. Consumer unit IP failure - lack of blanks cable entry points not sealed (C1)
11. Shower cable not in use and isolator cannot be removed - recommend disconnection (C2)
12. First floor lights insulation resistance fault short circuit (C2)
13. Ground floor lights not earthed (C2)
14. Consumer unit plastic - not fire rated (C3)
15. Lack of RCD means circuits will not disconnect under fault conditions. Danger of electrocution. Disconnection time of 0.2 seconds will not occur in the event of a fault (C1)
16. Lack of SPD (C3)
17. Cables not colour marked / identified (C2)
18. Lack of supplementary bonding in bathrooms (C2)

The electrician quoted me £2,500 for fixing the above but recommended a full rewire at a cost of £4,500 as "the installation is old and badly modified".

The costs is quite steep for me right now as first time buyers, especially since I have to add costs for post-rewire plastering, carpeting, decorating cost as well as delay in moving in (= longer period of paying rent and mortgage).

Grateful for any advice on how safety critical the above seem? I think the C1s probably do need to get done soon but are the above C2s a major safety risks or is it just that standards have moved on? And if it's just outdated standards, would it be ok to leave those?

Many thanks.

 

[flameport]

Most of those C2s are correct.

C1s need to be fixed immediately - they are dangerous now as in they could kill someone.
C2s need to be fixed as soon as possible - if some other fault occurs, electric shock, fire and worse is very likely to happen.

From the list given, it appears this is a TT installation and someone has removed the RCD(s) because it tripped all the time due to various faults, and now the installation is unprotected.
With the defects listed, I would not want to live in such a property or keep the electricity turned on.

Unless the property is already super cheap, at least £10k needs to come off the price, and probably more like £20k.
Also consider that if the electrics are in that mess, what shambles is everything else likely to be in.

 

[ericmark]

After 1966 lights were earthed and we used plastic wiring, before that we got a lot of rubber insulation, so 1950's it likely does need a rewire, my parents house 1954 had to be rewired, the problem was many additions and repairs resulted in not always realising there was rubber insulated wire on the circuit. However when it was tried fitting RCD protection at 30 mA it was tripping so had to be removed until rewired. My dad refused to allow a rewire, so done after his death.

It was never wired as a TT but on testing no earth found, it seems it had relied on the water pipes, so the DNO did free of charge convert it to TN-C-S thinking back to around 2006 when that house was rewired the price you have been quoted seems very good.

One may argue that some of the coding is a bit on the strict side, but the work still needs doing, so I would say from what you say it seems a very good EICR.

I know we bought this house with a load of faults, and it has needed a lot of money spending on it, and 4 years on still getting things done, it is not we don't have the money, but it is the disruption when the work is done, and so a rewire before moving in seems a good idea, easier when there is no or little furniture, and no freezers to keep cool. We did without carpets until last year, but some jobs like the floor under the cistern cracking in our case are clearly jobs that must be done. And I would say in your case yes a rewire needs doing.

 

[jurassic sparkk]

Get another electrician mate. That EICR is fiction.

 

[Murdochcat]

So well done for investing in an EICR - a very good move that so many FTB's don't bother with as they think they are saving money.

These are my thoughts

The observations in the EICR were as follows:

1. Suppliers main fuse components missing exposed basic insulation (C2)

You can't code items on the suppliers in take

1. Kitchen downlight not fire rated - connections not enclosed and not earthed (C2)

No need for fire rated downlights if a house - connections not enclosed and not earthed could warrant a C2

1. Earth rod not found / accessible for inspection (C2)

FI - what is the Ze on the EICR?

1. Gas & Water services not earth bound (C2)

Agree if both are metal incomers

1. Consumer unit has had RCD removed - no RCD protection (C2)

Agree

1. Kitchen switch no earth + lounge wall light and centre light no earth (C2)

Agree - what does the schedule of results say about the CPC size on the circuit?

1. First floor lights no earth (C2)

Agree - as above

1. Sockets main house - short circuit neutral/live earth (C2)

FI

1. A tangle of wires, exposed single insulation/live parts above ensuite in loft (C1)

Agree

1. Consumer unit IP failure - lack of blanks cable entry points not sealed (C1)

Probably a C2 unless a finger can access live parts

1. Shower cable not in use and isolator cannot be removed - recommend disconnection (C2)

Nonsense

1. First floor lights insulation resistance fault short circuit (C2)

IR between L&N presumably as they claim no CPC - not sure I believe this

1. Ground floor lights not earthed (C2)

Agree

1. Consumer unit plastic - not fire rated (C3)

Agree

1. Lack of RCD means circuits will not disconnect under fault conditions. Danger of electrocution. Disconnection time of 0.2 seconds will not occur in the event of a fault (C1)

C2

1. Lack of SPD (C3)

Agree

1. Cables not colour marked / identified (C2)

Really ?

1. Lack of supplementary bonding in bathrooms (C2)

Agree

The electrician quoted me £2,500 for fixing the above but recommended a full rewire at a cost of £4,500 as "the installation is old and badly modified".

The costs is quite steep for me right now as first time buyers, especially since I have to add costs for post-rewire plastering, carpeting, decorating cost as well as delay in moving in (= longer period of paying rent and mortgage).

Grateful for any advice on how safety critical the above seem? I think the C1s probably do need to get done soon but are the above C2s a major safety risks or is it just that standards have moved on? And if it's just outdated standards, would it be ok to leave those?

Many thanks.

£2500 to fix, full rewire £4500 - if the issues are as stated then "fixing" isn't really an option and a full rewire sounds cheap - so at least £10 - £15K off the price.

Are there any other comments on the EICR?


The other option would be to get a 2nd EICR (don't tell the 2nd spark about the first and see how they compare

Only somebody onsite can really see the issues but it its a 1950's house with no lighting CPC's then the wiring does need to be completely redone IMHO

 

[Chepdi87]

Thanks all for very helpful advise on this.

General comment on the condition of the installation is: "Lack of RCD protection, Installation has numerous faults and has been badly monitored and modified - it is at the end of its serviceable life"

It looks like a full rewire may be needed in that case, especially if the quoted price is cheap.

Can I check what the basis for asking £10k - £20k off the house price is if the full rewire only costs £4.5k? Are there any other significant expenses that I need to allow for as part of the rewire that might push the total cost towards the £10-20k mark?

 

[ebee]

Your EICR sounds broadly credible - Obviously we can`t be more certain because we have not seen or tested it but in essence it might be fairly accurate.
With so many observations then yes a full rewire appears the most prudent option - often during remedials other hidden items become apparent that could not be viewed on an EICR anyway , but even if not then I`d say it would be best option to rewire.

You could ask the seller to reduce the price accordingly - that does does not mean that if the rewire costs 10k they should reduce 10k though, they might drop 5K or 3K or some figure and you could have an electrical installation that would be safe for very many years.

As said, you could ask a n other for an opinion and that would cost you too

 

[davelx]

If the seller has read this forum he'll tell you that the asking price takes into account the condition of the electrical installation, so no reduction, as often advised here.

 

[ebee]

Yes that`s true

 

[Murdochcat]

Lower your offer and then you’ll know. It all depends on your view of the home and why you want it and how long for

 

[ebee]

Yes there is always a case for negotiation , to what extent and how successful then who knows, the figure i gave on the 10k example were not representative in particular, much more a "serving suggestion" on a box of cereal etc.

PS I once read a book, it might have been this one, quite informative and a laugh upon the way. The one I read might have been the first edition.
It was many years ago.

 

[JohnW2]

If the seller has read this forum he'll tell you that the asking price takes into account the condition of the electrical installation, so no reduction, as often advised here.

You beat me to it - yes, that's exactly what I always say and advise, here and elsewhere

Unfortunately for the OP, in this case it sounds as if it would probably not be hard for the seller to argue that it was apparent (even to a 'layman') that a re-wire might well be required, and that the asking price already reflected that.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Chepdi87]

You beat me to it - yes, that's exactly what I always say and advise, here and elsewhere

Unfortunately for the OP, in this case it sounds as if it would probably not be hard for the seller to argue that it was apparent (even to a 'layman') that a re-wire might well be required, and that the asking price already reflected that.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks. I am buying an property that was part exchanged and I don't think the developer who now owns the property knew about these issues (they didn't have any of the EICR, Gas Safety, etc). The place also looked fairly renovated, so it wasn't obvious to me as a lay person that an electrical rewire might be needed.

Despite its decorative state, the building survey uncovered some damp and timber issues which I am currently getting a specialist survey arranged. If those also show expensive issues, I am minded to renegotiate.

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks. I am buying an property that was part exchanged and I don't think the developer who now owns the property knew about these issues (they didn't have any of the EICR, Gas Safety, etc). The place also looked fairly renovated, so it wasn't obvious to me as a lay person that an electrical rewire might be needed.

Fair enough. That increases the chances that you might achieve something by negotiation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

Can I check what the basis for asking £10k - £20k off the house price is if the full rewire only costs £4.5k?

1 - a full rewire for only £4500 is at the super cheapo low end. Expect to pay significantly more for a decent installation with proper quantities of sockets, lights and all the other things people forget about such as smoke alarms, TV, cables for internet and whatever else.

2 - A full rewire will involve damage to walls, ceilings and floors. Replastering and redecoration will be required.

3 - You should always include some extra for contingency, particularly for a property which you have little or no details about.