Neutral wire to Futureproof?

[JohnW2]

That's fine with pendants but if you use this method you end up with JBs under the floor.

I don't see why. Whether you loop at the switch or at the rose/light, there has to be a T+E from the switch to the light. If one 'upgrades' that to 3C+E, one can then use the extra core for a neutral (if looping at rose/light) or permanent L (if looping at switch). The currently unused core can then be parked in a bit of connector block at the switch or a luminaire, or at the rose if there is one. No JBs needed.

Am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Iggifer]

I don't see why. Whether you loop at the switch or at the rose/light, there has to be a T+E from the switch to the light. If one 'upgrades' that to 3C+E, one can then use the extra core for a neutral (if looping at rose/light) or permanent L (if looping at switch). The currently unused core can then be parked in a bit of connector block at the switch or a luminaire, or at the rose if there is one. No JBs needed.

Am I missing something?

Kind Regards, John

You're not missing something, my post was! It was supposed to read:

"that's fine with pendants, but with spots you end up with JB's under the floor" I remember typing spots so don't know what happened there.

 

[cjard]

Post wiring my place up loop-at-rose style I found myself wishing it had been done at the switch instead, because the dimmer modules (Fibaro) had two switch terminals and there were two lighting circuits per room. I suppose I could also have had a 7 core (or 2x 3C+e)run between rose and switch to solve the problem. Had sufficient cores gone in, I could have made use of some additional functionality of the dimmer switches (e.g. Hold one switch to dim down and another to dim up- as it stands one has to hold the switch, see which way it dims and if it isn't the way desired, release and hold the switch again). Decide which smart product you want and check it out, wire accordingly

Another tip, and something my spark had never been asked to do; I requested a length of 3c+e be run from one side of every door, up and over to the other side of the door and labelled up as spare. A couple of doors we thought should swing one way, we later changed our mind and had them swing the other way. Having a cable already in the wall meant the light switch could be easily swapped to the other side and the spare cable connected up, blanking panel where the switch used to be, for access to the JBs, without smashing the wall to bits or forever more having a light switch stuck behind the door

 

[JohnW2]

Post wiring my place up loop-at-rose style I found myself wishing it had been done at the switch instead, because the dimmer modules ....

Indeed, but, as I said, if the circuits had been looped at switches, then you (or a subsequent owner) might have found yourself cursing because you wanted to extend the lighting circuit. Despite what others have suggested, if all lights are 'looped at the switch' and there are no pull switches, then it could well be difficult or impossible to find a permanent live above the ceiling. That's why I mentioned the possible 'best of both worlds' approach.

Another tip, and something my spark had never been asked to do; I requested a length of 3c+e be run from one side of every door, up and over to the other side of the door and labelled up as spare. A couple of doors we thought should swing one way, we later changed our mind and had them swing the other way....

Fair enough, but I would think it pretty rare for people to want to reverse doors, so most people would probably not think that the effort/cost/hassle of doing that was justified. I can think of plenty of alterations to an electrical installation that might possibly be required in the future, but if one tried to make provision for every possibility one could think of, one's walls would probably end up being constructed mainly out of cables

In practical terms, to do as you suggest in a compliant manner obviously requires that the cables go all the way up to within 150mm of the ceiling, and that a blank plate (which some might regard as 'unsightly') be installed at the currently uinused end of that 3C+E (in order for the cable to remain in 'safe zones').

Kind Regards, John

 

[sparkwright]

To agree/clarify/confirm everything that's been said - run a 3 core+e between the light and switch every time.

This will work on both wiring methods; loop-in at rose, and also loop-in at switch.

 

[JohnW2]

To agree/clarify/confirm everything that's been said - run a 3 core+e between the light and switch every time. This will work on both wiring methods; loop-in at rose, and also loop-in at switch.

I'm pleased to hear that you agree!

Kind Regards, John

 

[sparkwright]

Sometimes I think it's a good idea to send a post which both agrees with some people and also summarises what's been said in the hope it will stand out to the op.

 

[JohnW2]

Sometimes I think it's a good idea to send a post which both agrees with some people and also summarises what's been said in the hope it will stand out to the op.

I agree - but be careful, since, speaking personally, I sometimes have to run for shelter after I've done that

The other problem, of course, is that some people may not agree with what you I, and some others have suggested (and you have 'summarised').

As a matter of interest, have you ever done it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[cjard]

Despite what others have suggested, if all lights are 'looped at the switch' and there are no pull switches, then it could well be difficult or impossible to find a permanent live above the ceiling.

Why would you go looking in a ceiling for a perm live, in a house that is looped in at the switches?

Fair enough, but I would think it pretty rare for people to want to reverse doors, so most people would probably not think that the effort/cost/hassle of doing that was justified.

The cost of running spare cables is a few pence while a house is being built?

I can think of plenty of alterations to an electrical installation that might possibly be required in the future

In the same way that carmakers have an options list, you should make a list of this plethora that comes to mind- then (future readers if this thread) can just pick the ideas that appeal?

I've changed the swing of two of my doors, so it was worth it to me..

In practical terms, to do as you suggest in a compliant manner obviously requires that the cables go all the way up to within 150mm of the ceiling, and that a blank plate (which some might regard as 'unsightly') be installed at the currently uinused end of that 3C+E (in order for the cable to remain in 'safe zones').

Yeahhh, I can't see the logic of that if neither end of cable is connected to anything.. and if it's used, the old switch becomes a blanking plate maintaining safe zone rules

 

[JohnW2]

Why would you go looking in a ceiling for a perm live, in a house that is looped in at the switches?

As I said, if one wanted to extend a lighting circuit. Lifting a few floorboards above (if for ground floor lighting) or, even easier, going into the loft (for top floor lighting) to get both neutral and permanent live is likely to be more attractive than digging up one's walls to get a feed from a perm live at a switch.

In any event, you seem to be inconsistent. You go on to say ...

The cost of running spare cables is a few pence while a house is being built?

... which is essentially true, yet the cost of running 3C+E (rather than T+E) from switches to roses/luminaires costs even less pence whilst a house is being built, doesn't it? That way you have the potential for both N and perm L at all switches and all roses/luminaires, should the need ever arise.

Yeahhh, I can't see the logic of that if neither end of cable is connected to anything.. and if it's used, the old switch becomes a blanking plate maintaining safe zone rules

I wasn't totally clear in what I wrote. I don't think that there is any requirement for a 'not connected to anything' cable to be be in 'safe zones'! However, if you're having such cables installed, you obviously think that you might possibly put them into service in the future, so it would be crazy to have them 'pre-emptively' installed but not in safe zones, since that's where they would be required to be if/when you put them into service.

Kind Regards, John

 

[cjard]

It depends on the house I suppose; pretty sure in mine it'd be easier to GOP a hole in a plasterboard wall than it would to lift any of the glued-and-ringnailed-22mm-tng-8x2 flooring boards.. and I did put 3C+e between rose and switch; I just wish I'd put 7 cores instead because I ended up with a proper ball ache for the rooms with 2 lighting sets (e.g. Wall and ceiling).

(And this was the crux of my post, really- there are rooms where I mix Fibaro dimmer v1 and Fibaro dimmer v2 but the two aren't compatibly wired internally, so where I thought things would be fine with 3C+e, I had a lot of jigging to do, as you can only properly establish 2 lighting sets on 2 modules controlled over 3 cores if the modules are the same version

Had I foreseen this I'd have put at least 7 cores between switch and rose. Or I'd have looped at switch and not had the problem. Other than trying to fit everything in a 1 gang 47 mm backbox of course..

 

[JohnW2]

... and I did put 3C+e between rose and switch;...

In that case, it probably makes no difference whether you loop at switches or roses (or even a mixture).

... I just wish I'd put 7 cores instead because I ended up with a proper ball ache for the rooms with 2 lighting sets (e.g. Wall and ceiling).

Lack of foresight there If it had been me, I think I would probably have put in one 3C+E for each circuit!

Kind Regards, John

 

[cjard]

Indeed, but I'd worked out, on a faulty premise, that 3C via was enough. Dare say it'd have made the switches ridiculously busy having four 3C+e in a back box(2x to rose and 2x to slave switch as well as the short bits of multi strand flex to stop the solid core making life hard work for fitting the faacias

Ps; if 3C+e mean's no practical difference between switch looping and rose looping, at the very least there's something to be said for not having to bugger about with dimmer modules/working overhead while up a step ladder getting plasterboard in your eyes

 

[JohnW2]

Ps; if 3C+e mean's no practical difference between switch looping and rose looping, at the very least there's something to be said for not having to bugger about with dimmer modules/working overhead while up a step ladder getting plasterboard in your eyes

Indeed. If you have that extra core, then can have both N and perm L at both switch and rose, so all options are open.

Of course, we've been talking about '1-way' switching. If any of the switching is '2-way' then that in itself needs 3C+E (that, after all, is by far the most common use of 3C+E cable), so you'd have to find the extra core 'somewhere else' - like in 5-core cable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Steve335]

Thanks for all the replies.

I’ve stated to them what I’m looking to do so I’ll see what happens!