New Boiler, New System, or Neither?

[Gasguru]

Don't forget to take off the annual service cost on Band A condensing boilers.

Thats often £20 for a gasket set plus loads of labour cost pulling it apart and waiting for it to heat up before carrying out flue gas analysis.

Many condensing boilers will rapidly destroy themselves if not routinely serviced - the condensate traps can esaily block and many models are prone to leaks causing rapid corrosion. Heat exchangers are also more complex in design.

Gone are the days of leaving a boiler to brake down before servicing.

For most households the savings in gas will be negated by a proper and safe annual service (ie not re-using the old gaskets and seals).

 

[chuckalicious]

More interesting answers, this place is fantastic.

Sadly the house is in incredibly good condition decor wise and there isn't a hope in hell of lifting floors or running new pipes.

I have looked where I can in the house and any exposed pipework seems to be quite well insulated with the foam jackets. I have only seen 2 bits of exposed pipework, one of which is under the floor lying on the actual earth under the house, which I intend on fixing this weekend. The other is all the copper pipework in the cupboard where the boiler is. This creates a fantastic drying room for our washing, so I am reluctant to insulate those because if the room wasn't so warm we'd have to use a tumble dryer, thus increasing our electricity costs.

We have no other gas appliances. Only hot water and heating.

Obviously on the whole I'd like to know I was running the most efficient and green system possible. I already use energy saver bulbs in all lights I can, and never leave TVs etc on standby.

Also, the £110 a month is only when the heating is on during the winter. I imagine (not been in over a summer yet) that during the summer I won't have the heating on, and will only use it for hot water, so the cost will go down considerably.

I would love to replace the heating controls, however, I have noticed (and tried to work out from the pipework in the boiler room) that I can't have the heating on without the hot water. I can have the hot water on without the heating, but not the other way round.

I don't know how that would affect replacing controls, or whether I'd be better getting someone round and simply discussing my options. I think it'd be the latter

 

[JohnD]

Get up in that loft!

How thick is the old insulation? Is there felt under the tiles? Is there a gap at the eaves where the wind blows in?

It's the easiest and cheapest way to save heaps of money.



BTW the boiler cupboard, with an old boiler, will still be warm and dry even if you insulate all the exposed pipes. And you are throwing heat away all the time, not just when you are drying washing. You need ventilation to take away the water you are steaming off into the house, or you will get condensation and mould.

 

[chuckalicious]

Get up in that loft!
How thick is the old insulation? Is there felt under the tiles? Is there a gap at the eaves where the wind blows in?

It's the easiest and cheapest way to save heaps of money.

BTW the boiler cupboard, with an old boiler, will still be warm and dry even if you insulate all the exposed pipes. And you are throwing heat away all the time, not just when you are drying washing. You need ventilation to take away the water you are steaming off into the house, or you will get condensation and mould.

The insulation isn't very thick to be fair, it's probably pretty old.

The roof is unfelted. It's an original slated roof. I haven't looked at the eaves, but I know there is a draught (not a gale), which I have been led to believe is a good thing, it keeps the roof in good condition.

I was also under the impression that the boiler would be sucking air in and blowing it outside, so it would be removing the damp air from the clothes and passing it outside, via the flue. Also, the door to the room does have good ventilation.

I am now quite confused because I have been warned about over insulating my roof due to risking condensation and damaging the inside of the roof, I've been warned against insulating the pipes in the boiler room or I'd lose my drying room, now I'm being told I won't, and using it as a drying room might be bad.....

 

[JohnD]

How thick is the old insulation?

The insulation isn't very thick

How thick is that, then?

Is there felt under the tiles? Is there a gap at the eaves where the wind blows in?

The roof is unfelted. It's an original slated roof. I haven't looked at the eaves, but I know there is a draught (not a gale), which I have been led to believe is a good thing, it keeps the roof in good condition.

Then you don't need to worry about insulation sealing it. Unfelted tiles are draughty, and all you have to do is watch that you don't flop the new insulation into the eaves and block them.

I was also under the impression that the boiler would be sucking air in and blowing it outside, so it would be removing the damp air from the clothes and passing it outside, via the flue. Also, the door to the room does have good ventilation.
... I've been warned against insulating the pipes in the boiler room or I'd lose my drying room, now I'm being told I won't, and using it as a drying room might be bad.....

Most boilers are room-sealed and have a balanced flue, so that they draw in fresh air from outside, and flow the fumes out, through the wall. If yours is a very very old boiler with a chimney then it won't do that, but it is unusual and I hadn't taken it into account.

If you feel your boiler casing, you will find it is quite warm, and the casing alone will throw out as much heat as a small radiator, even when all the pipes are insulated, so it will still give you an airing cupboard/hot press.

 

[chuckalicious]

I don't know how thick it is, I'm at work However I think it'd be maybe 4-5 inches at most, and probably much less at points.

So if the boiler is room sealed then why does the room need so much ventilation, if the boiler pulls the air it needs from outside? (By the way I hope I don't sound like I'm questioning your comments, I have never had an old boiler or house before so know nothing about them and would like to make sure I know that what I have it working properly and is set up correctly!).

The boiler casing is quite warm, so maybe I will try covering the pipes and see where I get with that.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[JohnD]

The current recommended depth for loft insulation is ten inches.

You are in a fairly cool part of Britain so the thicker the better.

When you get home, measure the depth of the roof timbers that the insulation lies between, and the spacing between them (that is the width of rolls you need).

If you are lucky enough to have timbers 7 or 8 inches deep, just lay rolls between the timbers of similar depth, or slightly more. You can trim them with a bread knife or big decorators scissors. It is best to have the rolls a fairly tight fit so there are no gaps. As you have unfelted slates a lot of dirt and dust will come through. You can vacuum out the loft if you want, but it will soon get dirty again. Wear a dust mask (this is not a joke). You do not have to take out the old insulation, but remove dead birds, mice, old carpets etc. as they harbour insects.

If the timbers are only 3 or 4 inches deep, there are different good ways of doing it, depending on whether you will ever want to walk about in the loft without tripping on deep insulation and falling through the plaster ceiling.

 

[chuckalicious]

Thanks for the tips.

So you'd 100% suggest better insulation first, and possibly trying having the boiler on more times, for shorter spells if at all possible, before shelling out for a whole new boiler?

 

[JohnD]

Insulation first, yes.

Run Boiler more often? Just use the timer and thermostats (you do have them, right?)

I'd keep the old boiler until something happens that means you need to change it. But give it a chemical clean, flush and refill with inhibitor (you can do that yourself. It is labour intensive and if done professionally with a powerflusher machine will cost hundreds of pounds). Microbore is prone to sediment blockages that are difficult to clear if not kept clean. If you put a new boiler on an old system it can clog with old sediment and this is not covered by the guarantee.

 

[chuckalicious]

Yes, we have one thermostat and one timer. The problem with the timer is that, as I said earlier, the hot water must be on for the heating to work, and the settings are either: off, on twice, or on 24/7. This doesn't allow us much control and the fact that there is only one thermostat in the stairway probably doesn't do much good.

However, I don't know if replacing a timer would be something I could do myself, as I imagine it depends on how the valves and pumps are wired up etc etc.

Assuming I can find the outlet I'm happy to drain the system myself. I assume I turn off the mains to the header, and then simply drain the system, probably opening rad bleed valves as I go (I cleaned a combi system a few years ago with this method).

 

[JohnD]

Also:

Bale and sponge out the sludge from the bottom of the F&E tank before you start to drain, or it may run down into the system, and drain out any loose stuff.

Run the system with the chemical cleaner in for at least as long as the instructions say (may be a week or so) before draining again and flushing.

Add the inhibitor during final refill.

Sentinel and Fernox are good brands. Ther are some cheap ones too.

Assuming your hot-water cylinder is well insulated, it is not a significant problem that the HW is on at the same time time as the rads. Any heat lost will help warm the house.

 

[chuckalicious]

Ah yes, good point. I'd read elsewhere about making sure the tank was clean before draining. From what you said though, I shouldn't drain or clean the tank until the initial cleaner has been in for x amount of days.

If I'm correct, draining the system just now would probably clog it up with all the sludge wouldn't it, but using some proper Fernox sludge remover, it will make the debris water borne and thus less likely to clog?

Of course, I could be talking **ss so please correct me

So I'll take all that on board and go insulate, then at some point (is it a good idea to tackle this just as the cold weather is coming on) put the cleaner in, leave it, drain it a few times, then put in inhibitor.

Then if worst comes to worst, buy a new boiler

 

[JohnD]

For the cleaning, I think the best sequence is:

Buy the bottle of cleaner, and the bottle of inhibitor, and assemble your tools and draining hose

Tie up the ball valve and bale out the muck from the F&E tank

Drain out what dirty water and sludge you can, then fill it up (no need to bleed the rads yet) and run the pump with the boiler stat turned to cold, to run the water round and hopefully loosen a bit more; then drain that out; close the drain-offs, tip in the cleaner, refill, bleed, then run the syst per instructions. To loosen sediment, you can bang the rads with a rubber mallet wrapped in an old towel (!) while flushing.

After a suitable period...

Drain, flush, rinse per instructions; close the drainoffs, tip in the inhibitor; fill, bleed, run live.

Take care to turn off the boiler and pump when the system is draining - remove the fuse if there is one.

Buy a spare bottle of inhibitor in case you have to drain down subsequently.

With 10 rads you probably have in the region of 100litres of water in your system, buy enough chemicals for that.

p.s. I am just an amateur, and haven't done microbore, so maybe one of the pro.s will correct if I've got anything wrong.

 

[chuckalicious]

One last question....

Would the cleaner and inhibitor go in through a radiator as I've seen insturcted, or should it go in through the header tank? Last thing I want to do is contaminate my hot water tank..... (seeing as my heating and hot water are linked I'd rather make sure I don't get it wrong )

 

[Daz66]

Yes, we have one thermostat and one timer. The problem with the timer is that, as I said earlier, the hot water must be on for the heating to work, and the settings are either: off, on twice, or on 24/7. This doesn't allow us much control and the fact that there is only one thermostat in the stairway probably doesn't do much good.

You should have a three way valve close to the pump which splits the water routed throught the boilers to either the heating or hot water sides. If this is sticking open you will get the impression that the system works as you describe, if your draining down the system it may be a good time to change this valve for a new one which will allow the fitting of a digital timer/controller which gives more control.

Leaving the heating system running at around 21-23 degrees should mean the boiler only runs when the temp falls below the set piont and allows the house to retain a memory of the temp (the walls will not loose heat and take less tome to heat up).