New busbar for split-load consumer unit converted to all RCBO

[RandomGrinch]

What do you mean with right bits of paper? Does a new CU installation with a certification that is important to keep?

Basically, yes.
The changing of a consumer unit is 'Notifiable work' under 'Approved Document P'.

Approved Document P - Part P - Electrical Safety - Planning Portal

Details of Part P (Approved Document P) of the Building Regulations

www.planningportal.co.uk

This is the document that introduces the term 'Competent'.

Put simply, there are certain tasks that there is little incentive for a DIY'er to complete (if they wish to comply..) - a consumer unit change being one of them.
In order to obtain a completion certificate as a DIY'er, I would have to apply to my local authority (before the work begins), pay their fees, arrange for inspection and testing on their terms, etc.
Alternatively I can simply pay an electrician who is a member of a self-certifying scheme - which may be the cheaper option anyway.

Without the completion certificate, there may be issues with conveyancing in a house sale, but to some extent that is only perception; a cheap indemnity insurance policy will usually appease the solicitors.

The central heating forum has it far simpler when discussing competency - even though DIY gas work is 'technically' possible, the whole discussion is moot. Posts relating to DIY gas work are banned from the forum.
Even if a DIY'er could prove their competency to do gas work (very difficult) - any advice given, could be followed by others; with potentially damaging consequences.

...and forgive me if I have repeated what others have said, this post has taken a few minutes to think about!

 

[EFLImpudence]

The changing of a consumer unit is 'Notifiable work' under 'Approved Document P'.

The Approved Documents (are just written by someone and) merely quote the actual law (and a lot of other waffle).

In this case: Regulation 12. 6A of The Building Regulations.

The Building Regulations &c. (Amendment) Regulations 2012

These Regulations amend the Building Regulations 2010 (“the Building Regulations”), the Building (Local Authority Charges) Regulations 2010 (“the Charges Regulations”) and the Building (Approved Inspectors etc) Regulations 2010 (“the Approved Inspectors Regulations 2010”).

www.legislation.gov.uk

Much more concise.

 

[JohnW2]

Have gone back and forth between Octopus Energy and UK Power Networks already. Octopus Energy informed me that they needed to contact UK Power Networks and that the job would be delegated back to them by UK Power Networks so that they'd have the authority to do it.

The fuse (and fuse holder etc.) are the property of the DNO (UKPN) and if it is faulty (and potentially dangerous) to the extent than an (Octopus) technician/electrician cannot remove the fuse, then it is surely the responsibility of UKPN to arrange for that problem to be rectified?

UKPN may choose to 'authorise' Octopus to do it, but that's their business -and (at least to my mind) doesn't alter the fact that UKPN remain responsible for ensuring that the problem is remedied, whether by themselves or someone else.

Kind Regards, John

 

[markyd1]

Good God is this still going on

 

[JohnW2]

Good God is this still going on

You started it

 

[markyd1]

Oh Sh~# yeh

 

[LostDutch]

this character is one who is not looking for help, I realised that before my first where I agreed with you

I have learned a bunch of things from the responses to this forum post. An explanation for the odd way that the breakers in mu CU are mounted, a bit more insight into the tension between DIY advocates and professionals, how acceptable various methods of mounting a busbar are, and a confirmation that the original mounting system of the busbar and breakers isn't such a great design.

But I haven't learned much from you, except for that it is your opinion that I should hire someone else to do this. You think I'm not only incompetent, but apparently I also do "stupid" things.

OP condemns wiring practices in the country he's working in

I criticize the culture that discourages DIY work because it has a lot of downsides, not just in terms of DIY electrical work. My neighbour is a builder and he's very positive about all the DIY work that we're putting into the house. He complained that young people don't have any practical skills anymore. With plumbing, roofing, electrical work etc. all being discouraged, how is that supposed to change?

OP fails to look at MI's (Shelly)

Nonsense. The reason I'm using this device is because it was a gift from someone who didn't use it anymore. You shouldn't have so much confidence in your speculations about the situation as they are just speculations.

tens of post later he is still too stupid to understand we are trying to help.

It's blatantly obvious to me this character is totally intending to ignore our wiring regs (and for that matter, if I understand correctly, those of the country he seems to think are superior {or possibly inferior, it's difficult to tell} to ours) continue botching until something actually goes wrong. By then the cost of competency is very likely to far exceed the current cost.

I'm definitely not ignoring your regulations. In other work I am putting a lot of effort into making sure that the building regulations are followed. There is a lot more emphasis on building regs here than there is in the Netherlands. I have an opinion on the wiring regs in the UK (which is also my country by the way), but these aren't very relevant as I'm not someone with a lot of authority on the topic. But to clarify:

* UK has the best plugs, hands down. The number of safety enhancing design aspects that barely harm user friendliness is amazing work.
* Fuses in plugs and sockets are great, much better than the Dutch ones where daisy chaining extension cords, which you often see, can have more serious consequences than here.
* UK building regs (and building practices) are soooo considerate of cost saving, which is super annoying and is most costly in the long term (not just monetary)
* In the Netherlands new installs devices for residual current protection type AC have been prohibited since 1996. The UK is VERY late with banning these.
* The amount of paperwork in the UK is definitely a bit excessive, or certification requirements. Like the requirement of an MCS certificate for SEG eligibility. Or the conveyancing process, what a horror show.
* The use of insulated cables instead of uPVC conduit is a bit annoying or at least takes some getting used to. It's quicker though and I guess it reduces opportunities for errors.
* Ring circuits do not seem worth the risk or cost savings compared to radial circuits. The fact that a socket on a ring circuit keeps working if the circuit has been interrupted is not good. I am much more a fan of when it's clear when something's broken, simply because it stops working.

For what it's worth my friend from Kerkelanden is also reading this thread and sending me emails about his posts, I will not be quoting the strength of his words on here.

He's your friend, so it's his job to agree with you. But have a look at the Dutch "Tweakers meter cabinet" forum with Google translate if you're interested. You'll see that its HUGE for such a small country and that it's all DIY related discussions and advice related to consumer units. There are definitely also regulations there, but people are more relaxed and help each other follow them.

I had a chat about this discussion with a knowledgable person and he raised an interesting point. There is often a difference in attitudes towards DIY installations between field engineers with good knowledge of the regs and engineers with an academic background and a MSc or PhD. The field engineer values the regulations and how they believe things should be done. The academic has a better understanding of the physics involved and is better able to evaluate whether an installation that does not follow the regs is safe or not. Oftentimes though, you'll find that field engineers will equate non-compliant with unsafe, which is what they are supposed to do in their daily job. However, on a DIY forum it's a bit more complicated. In another field I have made the same observation. Nurses will usually be quite dissatisfied when the doctor makes an (authorised) decision to deviate from normal policies, and this dissatisfaction is based on their loyalty to the policy they work under.

I even made the offer

No you didn't, you make a hypothetical offer. You said that you would have offered but didn't because you didn't believe I'm competent.

OP lies about wiring practices in the country he's negatively comparing ours with

I wouldn't know where I did that.

And I have done and will continue to do the same, none of us know everything and, despite best efforts, advice may not be appropriate. Frequently where the advisor is not aware of the situation in hand.

The only consequence of this is that I still do the work myself, but without the advice of a qualified person like yourself. Everyone loses with this attitude.

Since working with electricity can be dangerous without certain skills or knowledge, I would argue that the following attitude/policy is more productive: 1. Educate people on how the electrical system in their home works, so they are better able to recognise problems and determine when to hire a professional and what they can fix themselves. 2. Provide quality advice and information to the sub-section of the population who will DIY their wiring regardless of what's recommended (for whatever reason, money, stubbornness, ideals, pride). Let's call this the school of electrical enlightenment due to the emphasis on education, awareness, and empowering individuals to make informed decisions about electrical work while promoting safety.

This strikes a better balance than what I'll call the school of electrical abstinence.

 

[LostDutch]

You may not be familiar with the property conveyancing process in England & Wales, this is the kind of question that gets asked as standard, does the seller have all the relevant bits of paper for the various notifiable works that were done, etc. You can of course just pretend you didn't do anything and the chances of being found out are approximately 0%.

Yes I am, now I also know which bits of paper you're referring to. Our surveyor informed us that the house we bought didn't have them. No wonder that there were multiple pretty sketchy things like live sockets on knockout boxes that looked like a truck had driven over them.

Also.. Conveyancing.. what a horror show. Aside from my own experiences, what a waste of talent. Conveyancers (including conveyancing sollicitors) are highly educated people. And they're all doing a job that doesn't exist at all in many other Western European countries. Very harmful for the international competitiveness of a country.

As we often discuss here, that's the one thing one should not do, since it is potentially (albeit, again, very low risk) legally/financially dangerous.

Noted! Thanks!

 

[EFLImpudence]

Just some small points:

* UK has the best plugs, hands down. The number of safety enhancing design aspects that barely harm user friendliness is amazing work.

I disagree.
The safety devices are only necessary because of the now redundant circuit design and poor design limitations of the plug.

* Fuses in plugs and sockets are great,

I disagree. The fuses are only necessary because of the now redundant circuit design.

much better than the Dutch ones where daisy chaining extension cords, which you often see, can have more serious consequences than here.

It makes no difference.
In Europe the conductors are equally well protected but by the circuit OPD(MCB) - usually 16A - instead of the first 13A fuse.

* Ring circuits do not seem worth the risk or cost savings compared to radial circuits. The fact that a socket on a ring circuit keeps working if the circuit has been interrupted is not good. I am much more a fan of when it's clear when something's broken, simply because it stops working.

Agreed.
The specially designed ring with its dispensations is no longer necessary.

 

[JohnW2]

I disagree. The fuses are only necessary because of the now redundant circuit design.

Do I take it that what you feel is redundant is sockets circuits with an OPD greater than, say, about 16A ?

If so, then, as you are aware, I personally have some reservations (particularly in some locations, such as kitchens and utility rooms) about 'multiple socket' sockets circuits with a 'capacity' (OPD rating) of 20A or less - so I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with you about 'redundancy'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Do I take it that what you feel is redundant is sockets circuits with an OPD greater than, say, about 16A ?

Yes.

I appreciate that it might be difficult to change now, so I think you are stuck with things as they are for better or worse.

If so, then, as you are aware, I personally have some reservations (particularly in some locations, such as kitchens and utility rooms) about 'multiple socket' sockets circuits with a 'capacity' (OPD rating) of 20A or less - so I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with you about 'redundancy'.

Ok, but the rest of the world manages.


I don't know if it is really worth discussing but do you consider one ring sufficient for a kitchen?

Even if you were willing to employ European methods you would still have UK plugs on all your appliances.

 

[JohnW2]

I had a chat about this discussion with a knowledgable person and he raised an interesting point. There is often a difference in attitudes towards DIY installations between field engineers with good knowledge of the regs and engineers with an academic background and a MSc or PhD. The field engineer values the regulations and how they believe things should be done. The academic has a better understanding of the physics involved and is better able to evaluate whether an installation that does not follow the regs is safe or not. Oftentimes though, you'll find that field engineers will equate non-compliant with unsafe, which is what they are supposed to do in their daily job. However, on a DIY forum it's a bit more complicated. In another field I have made the same observation. Nurses will usually be quite dissatisfied when the doctor makes an (authorised) decision to deviate from normal policies, and this dissatisfaction is based on their loyalty to the policy they work under.

I agree almost totally with all of that, but just a couple of comments:

Firstly, in case you do not realise this, although it may not be obvious from what they write, a high proportion of contributors to this forum are not 'practicising qualified electricians'. I, for one, certainly am not, and never have been.

As we often discuss here, and as I eluded to when I first responded to your "being taken to task", "field engineers with a good knowledge of the regs" are sometimes more lacking in an understanding of basic electrical principles than some others - including the ones with ('relevant') academic backgrounds you mention, but also including many with no formal 'electrical background at al'.

In relation to regs (and, even more so, laws) and compliance with them, all of us have to (should be!) fairly 'careful' about what we say, and what advice we give, 'in public'. There are many situations in which (based on an understanding of underlying principle and 'common sense') the advice/suggestions I might (and sometimes do) give 'in private' are very different from what I would feel constrained to write in a 'public' forum.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... Ok, but the rest of the world manages. I don't know if it is really worth discussing but do you consider one ring sufficient for a kitchen?

Whether it is a ring or radial is not relevant to the point I was making.

In as much as a 32A circuit (ring or radial) can supply about 46A (about 10.7 kW) for an hour, without the OPD tripping and without the cable coming to any harm, one such circuit would probably be 'sufficient' for most kitchens - but I think it would be 'bad' (probably 'unacceptable') practice to take that into account in one's design.

Having two or more circuits only really works if the user has an understanding of 'which sockets are on which circuit' and how to spread the loads across the circuits.

Having a, say, 32A (ring or radial) circuit really requires 'plug fuses', unless one is prepared to use 2.5mm² flex for one's kettle, toaster, mixer, hair dryer or whatever.

Even if you were willing to employ European methods you would still have UK plugs on all your appliances.

You now appear to be agreeing with Lost Dutch and myself, that (as above) any (ring or radial) circuit >16A really needs (subject to my previous paragraph) fuses in the plugs.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Whether it is a ring or radial is not relevant to the point I was making.

Well, yes, but the ring circuit is the problem and the reason for the anomalies.

In as much as a 32A circuit (ring or radial) can supply about 46A (about 10.7 kW) for an hour, without the OPD tripping and without the cable coming to any harm, one such circuit would probably be 'sufficient' for most kitchens - but I think it would be 'bad' (probably 'unacceptable') practice to take that into account in one's design.

Well, we both can do sums so what about my point that people here in Europe seem to manage.

Instead of one 32A circuit, perhaps three 16A would be necessary or adequate. Is that such a big deal?

Having two or more circuits only really works if the user has an understanding of 'which sockets are on which circuit' and how to spread the loads across the circuits.

They must be brighter over here, then.

Having a, say, 32A (ring or radial) circuit really requires 'plug fuses', unless one is prepared to use 2.5mm² flex for one's kettle, toaster, mixer, hair dryer or whatever.

Yes, but that is my point. Such plugs and fuses are not necessary over here.

You now appear to be agreeing with Lost Dutch and myself, that (as above) any (ring or radial) circuit >16A really needs (subject to my previous paragraph) fuses in the plugs.

No, I didn't mean that.

I meant even if you designed a new house in the UK with only 16A circuits, you would still have appliances with their existing plugs.

I meant it is too late to alter the UK system even if you wanted to.

 

[JohnW2]

Well, yes, but the ring circuit is the problem and the reason for the anomalies.

That's historically true, but exactly the same issues ('anomalies') would have arisen if what had been introduced back in the 40s/50s/whenever had been 30A radials, rather than rings - i.e. it is "30A" which is the issue, not "ring".

Well, we both can do sums so what about my point that people here in Europe seem to manage.

Yes, everyone can do the sums, but I doubt that, in any country it is considered good/acceptable practive to design on the basis of a circuit being technically 'overloaded', is it?

Instead of one 32A circuit, perhaps three 16A would be necessary or adequate. Is that such a big deal? .... They must be brighter over here, then.

I'm not sure that people in any country are particularly 'bright' in this respect - when there are multiple sockets circuits in one room, I doubt that many people, in any country, are aware of 'which sockets are on which circuit' and/or the need to spread loads across those circuits.

Yes, but that is my point. Such plugs and fuses are not necessary over here.

Sure, but that's because of your 16A circuits, not because they are radials.

I meant it is too late to alter the UK system even if you wanted to.

I can't disagree with that - although, I suppose, the same could have been said when ring finals were introduced (and subsequently became pretty ubiquitous).

Kind Regards, John