New Oven delivered, refused installation

[sdousley]

Hi

My mother in law received a new oven today, and the company that delivered it refused to install the oven.

They said that the fuse box is too old (the house was built in the 70s), and would need replacing.

Is this common/likely?

If I had gone to buy this myself, and brought it home myself, I wouldn't have even thought to check anything like this.

Steve

 

[RF Lighting]

These companies use anything they can think of to get out of actually fitting the oven. We must have heard every excuse going on here.

Having an old fuse box is no reason on it's own to refuse connection.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do you mean is it common that it happens?

Yes, because they employ stupid, ignorant, unqualified and incompetent people to do the installations.

Do you mean is what they said likely to be true?

No, because they employ stupid, ignorant, unqualified and incompetent people to do the installations.


What's the situation with your MiL now? Is she without an oven? Is she with two ovens, one in a box in the hall?

Ideally you need to contact the seller and ask them to tell you in writing what is wrong with her electrics, and what, therefore, was the reason they refused to provide the service they had been contracted to do.

 

[EFLImpudence]

My mother in law received a new oven today, and the company that delivered it refused to install the oven.

They frequently do - any excuse.

They said that the fuse box is too old (the house was built in the 70s), and would need replacing.
Is this common/likely?

It is common that they say such things.
It probably does not need replacing - of course, it might do.

If I had gone to buy this myself, and brought it home myself, I wouldn't have even thought to check anything like this.

Well you should.

Get a second opinion or you could post a picture.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

As above plenty of suppliers offer to fit appliances, but try there best not to.
Just because the fuse board is old, doesn't mean you cannot replace an appliance.

What company was it? and what T&Cs regarding install?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

These companies use anything they can think of to get out of actually fitting the oven.

But then surely they would have to refund, or not collect in the first place, the charge for installing it.

 

[ninjacat]

Got my oven from John Lewis. Thought they might not be able to install it due to old fuse box, but not a word of complaint from electrician. So, some are good to their word.

 

[ericmark]

With an ELCB-v an electrician has a problem. All meters supplied measure the earth loop impedance, and ELCB-c tripping times they are useless to test the old ELCB-v.

So with a house with a TT supply and an ELCB-v then yes I would say sorry installation needs an up grade, which will in the main mean any fuse box will need changing for a consumer unit.

I think as said there are many semi-skilled people with little or no equipment who can only stop ending up in court by refusing to fit any cooker in a house without an RCD.

But where the problem arises is if they try to charge. As long as the earth loop impedance is within limits there is still no need for a cooker to have RCD protection there is nothing wrong with a simple fuse. So unless they have given a good reason why it has not been connected then they can't really charge.

As said there may be good reason. With a B32 MCB we expect a reading of 1.44Ω or less and if above that reading then we can only fit if there is RCD protection fitted. Today we use current operated devices and our meters measure both the current and time required for the RCD to trip.

However years ago with used voltage operated devices which were in the end banned as it was too easy for the earth to get by-passed and cause them not to work.

Even with 40 years experience if I was given an ELCB-v to test I would be scratching my head as to how. I am sure when they were in use there was a test but I tried using a standard RCD tester and it simply would not trip what happened was the tester detected an unsafe system and simply would not work.

The one I found I told the home owner it needed changing and he allowed me to change it. The test button on a RCD after the ELCB-v worked but the RCD tester would not trip it and so I assume who ever fitted the RCD after the ELCB-v never tested it with a RCD tester?

If as a electrician with 40 years in the trade I don't know how to test a ELCB-v what chance is there that a guy just out of his apprenticeship would know how?

If I had been faced with simple fit or don't fit a new cooker with a ELCB-v I think I would also say forget it I'm not signing to say that's OK. I would clearly have to refund any charge which had been made but I would not fit.

OK maybe it does not have an ELCB-v maybe the fitters are just lazy so and sos who just want to ride around in a van. But without details I would not jump to conclusions.

 

[JohnW2]

With an ELCB-v an electrician has a problem. All meters supplied measure the earth loop impedance, and ELCB-c tripping times they are useless to test the old ELCB-v.

As you go on to say, the problem with VOELCBs is not just about testing. In the presence of alternative paths to earth (which will nearly always exist), they just don't work 'as intended' (even if functioning correctly), and therefore are not safe.

However, although there are undoubtedly a few still in service, how common is it to come across in-service VOELCBs these days? Admittedly my exposure has been pretty limited, but I'm sure that it's well over 20, probably nearly 30, years since I last saw one in service.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Wow - it certainly is different in Wales.

Last one I came across wouldn't fit the cooker because there wasn't a 45A MCB.

 

[JohnW2]

Wow - it certainly is different in Wales.

Ah, I overlooked that - maybe that's where all the VOELCBs are

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

Eric. How do you get to VOELCB in a TT installation from the original post? Without seeing the installation it is guesswork as to whether the oven fitter is right or wrong. What is worse, refusing to install or installing the oven despite a fault.

 

[ericmark]

Last one was 18 months ago lucky I knew the owner well. I don't for one minute think this is an ELCB-v problem all I am pointing out is we don't have the facts and to simply say unreasonable is not a real answer.

Personally I would write in report exactly why I was not fitting the cooker. Clearly simply not to current regulations is not good enough but to me previous regulations is OK but one edition only. So now on 17th so installed to 16th is OK. Or now on BS7671:2008 so installed to BS7671:2001 is OK.

But installed to 15th or to BS7671:1992 has to be questionable. Clearly we can't accept "FIRST EDITION Entitled `Rules and Regulations for the Prevention of Fire Risks Arising from Electric Lighting'. Issued in 1882." there has to be a limit on how far back.

Again personally I have a copy of 16th Edition so I can say it complies or fails the previous edition but with 15th I have no copy so not willing to say it's OK or not.

So if complies with previous edition yes we should fit but if not then think correct to say enough is enough upgrade before we fit?

 

[deadshort]

Hi, you have a classic case of ICBA, which normally occurs at 4.55pm.

Regards,

DS

 

[JohnW2]

... all I am pointing out is we don't have the facts and to simply say unreasonable is not a real answer.

What, IMO, is unreasonable is refusing to fit it without giving a clear indication of the actual reason. As I need not tell you, "fuse box too old" is not, in itself, a reason for not installing.

Kind Regards, John