New Oven delivered, refused installation

[sdousley]

Hi

Thanks for this, I was going to contact them regarding this anyway, and will be including a note to respond within 7 days or I will contact (who would I put here?)

Would this be some sort of ombudsman, or trading standards?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Do they still owe you, or MiL money for installation not performed?

Just ask for it back, and if they say no, ask why.

Trading Standards won't get your money back for you.

 

[SimonH2]

Trading Standards might be interested in "systematic fraud" - offering an installation service (whether paid for or included in the price of the goods or delivery) and then using spurious grounds to refuse to provide the service. Your complaint on it's own won't trigger any action, but if lots complain then it would - that's why it's important for everyone to say something and not just let them get away with it.

Whether TS will be bothered about unqualified/not competent people making judgements about electrical matters I don't know.

HSE probably won't be bothered but such "small fry" issues either - again in isolation, but who knows if it were a "big" problem.

The thing is, if you word your letter carefully, the seller won't be sure who you might report them to So you just "hint" about reporting them, but make it clear that either they come and install or they'll pay for someone else to do so.

PS - local papers are usually happy to have anything to fill in the pages. "Granny* left without cooker due to bogus deliverymen" wouldn't (I assume) be something the seller will want to see as a headline above an article criticising them.

* According to age/family situation of course.

 

[scousespark]

Up to page 2, we had no idea exactly why the installation was refused.

Even now, we don't know if the installer was pulling a fast one or genuinely didn't know that a 30A fuse was the precursor to a 32A breaker. He may be young and/or inxeprienced and his training may have let him down.

My advice would be to contact Argos and speak to them. You could point out that you believe the cooker should have been installed. The least you should expect is a refund (if any money has changed hands). As has been said earlier, you could install the cooker yourself. If you don't feel comfortable, look in your Yellow Pages for a kitchen fitter/handyman.

The only 'advice' Simon appears to have missed would be to put a contract out on the guy.
- TS will only be interested if the company have taken money and refused to refund you. As the company on the sheet is Argos I think we would know if 'systemic fraud' is their new policy).
- The HSE would only be concerned if the cooker had been installed when it should not have been and this had led to an accident or a fire.
- Your local paper will only be interested if your MIL is frail and elderly and has actually been left with no cooker, or it is a slow news day.

 

[SimonH2]

Even now, we don't know if the installer was pulling a fast one or genuinely didn't know that a 30A fuse was the precursor to a 32A breaker. He may be young and/or inxeprienced and his training may have let him down.

If someone's training was so poor that he doesn't recognise a 30A fuse then he is not competent to be making such decisions.

The only 'advice' Simon appears to have missed would be to put a contract out on the guy.
- TS will only be interested if the company have taken money and refused to refund you. As the company on the sheet is Argos I think we would know if 'systemic fraud' is their new policy).

Have a read up what constitutes fraud. Money does not have to change hands. Even if the installation service is "free" then to refuse it on spurious grounds would be fraud.
The relevant law is the Fraud Act 2006 section 2. Offering an installation service, whether free or paid for, would be a statement intended "to make a gain for himself or another" (2(1)(b)(i). It's a fairly safe bet that (all other factors being equal) someone who isn't in a position to install the cooker themselves is going to go with the supplier that can install it for them.

- The HSE would only be concerned if the cooker had been installed when it should not have been and this had led to an accident or a fire.

Not interested in untrained and non-competent persons performing electrical work ? Hint, the HSE don't sit around waiting for something "bad" to happen.

- Your local paper will only be interested if your MIL is frail and elderly and has actually been left with no cooker, or it is a slow news day.

For most local papers, every day is a slow news day.

 

[stillp]

- The HSE would only be concerned if the cooker had been installed when it should not have been and this had led to an accident or a fire.

Not interested in untrained and non-competent persons performing electrical work ? Hint, the HSE don't sit around waiting for something "bad" to happen.

They'll be even less concerned about untrained and non-competent persons not performing electrical work. They have so few inspectors these days they are doing very little pro-active inspection.

 

[SimonH2]

But as I said, no I don't expect them to do anything with one report. However it does go into their stats.

Same with most other bodies (like trading standards).

That's half the problem, if everyone takes the attitude that it's not worth reporting then nothing goes in the stats and so they'll see no issue to address. And it's how outfits get away with it - by people not knowing their rights, and not complaining.

 

[stillp]

Trading Standards might record it in their stats, but HSE wouldn't bother, since nothing has happened that is unsafe and no breach of H & S regulations has occurred.

 

[sdousley]

Trading Standards might record it in their stats, but HSE wouldn't bother, since nothing has happened that is unsafe and no breach of H & S regulations has occurred.

I think what Simon is trying to say is that on this occasion no breach of H&S regs has occurred. But all the other times this "technician" who is not suitably competent to do such a thing (as shown by giving such a spurious reason not to) HAS installed a cooker, he would be in breach of H&S.

 

[SimonH2]

Indeed, but then one starts to wonder - where does it stop ?

What qualifications should a delivery guy have before he can connect a cooker to an existing connection point ? What tests should he be required to do ? What equipment would he need ?

At the risk of throwing flammable liquid on the fire ...
There is an argument for saying that if it's an approximately "like for like" replacement then regardless of the state of the installation, the new cooker will be no less safe than the old one. Hence anyone competent to put the right wires in the right terminals etc could do it.

 

[JohnW2]

I think what Simon is trying to say is that on this occasion no breach of H&S regs has occurred. But all the other times this "technician" who is not suitably competent to do such a thing (as shown by giving such a spurious reason not to) HAS installed a cooker, he would be in breach of H&S.

That might be the case, but we're making a lot of assumptions. The problem might not even be with the installer. It could, for example, be that the 'incompetence' (lack of knowledge) is on the part of someone (probably 'sitting at a desk') senior to him, who has, in the past, reprimanded the installer for installing with a 30A fuse "in breach of a 32A requirement".

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

Yes but that doesn't really change things - the system the installer works to is faulty.
If it is someone more senior at fault then I'd say that makes the situation even worse. It's one thing for a junior to be "following the rules he's been given", it's another (and IMO more serious) issue if the person(s) setting those rules aren't competent to do so.

Can someone who is unable to cope with a 30A fuse be considered competent to be "instructing" or supervising others for electrical work ?

 

[JohnW2]

Yes but that doesn't really change things - the system the installer works to is faulty. ... If it is someone more senior at fault then I'd say that makes the situation even worse. It's one thing for a junior to be "following the rules he's been given", it's another (and IMO more serious) issue if the person(s) setting those rules aren't competent to do so. ... Can someone who is unable to cope with a 30A fuse be considered competent to be "instructing" or supervising others for electrical work ?

All true, but I agree with stillp that it's very unlikely that HSE would have any interest - particularly if the only example is something which could be regarded as "erring on the side of safety" (even if 'incompetently').

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

In my experience the fitters won't connect appliances if everything is not as stated.

For example, if it is stated that 32A and 6mm² is required then unless that is what is waiting for them, they won't do it.

An oven with a plug will not be connected unless there is a socket at the location.



As I have said before, one was refused because there was not a 45A MCB so how many of them ever get connected?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The problem might not even be with the installer. It could, for example, be that the 'incompetence' (lack of knowledge) is on the part of someone (probably 'sitting at a desk') senior to him, who has, in the past, reprimanded the installer for installing with a 30A fuse "in breach of a 32A requirement".

How could such a person successfully reprimand an installer who was genuinely competent?