New shower cable

[roundthebend]

changing the subject slightly
why is your cooker fuse removed?

Seriously? There's never been a fuse in that position as long as we've lived here - 2 years. The label under the cover states "EMPTY" for it.

I hope you're pulling my leg. Cooker works fine, it's the chef that's the problem.

 

[rebuke]

So, should I get another electrician to come and check? Should I be expecting to pay a fee for that?

If I were you I would - get someone out, ask them how much they'd charge just to have a quick look (from what you've described and the pictures you've shown, I think it would only take about 10 minutes max to decide that it is wrong in various ways). They'd probably charge, although in the (quite likely) event that work needs doing, you may find they'll knock what you pay off the bill for sorting it out...

To summarise what most others have been saying, possible issues from what you've shown:

* 40A MCB in fuse board that is most probably designed for a maximum of 30A per way
* No RCD protection on shower (probably against manufacturers instructions, and certainly against the wiring regs)
* No obvious sign of any testing having been carried out, and no certificates provided, so I'd be incredibly surprised if he has self certified it to the LABC (assuming you're in England or Wales, this isn't relevant in Scotland). You can check if he's a member of a competent person scheme at www.competentperson.co.uk.

 

[tSpark]

well that fuse way has a cable going into it, looks like 6mm, the fuse plate is red which usually indicates as being 30 amp, I just persumed that would be your cooker.

Depending on the cookers size it could just be on your ring main, but thats a different story all together!!!

Back to your shower

I see no reason to believe that anyone commenting on this thread is more qualified than our friend.

I am a Part P registered electrician, trust me
YOU NEED RCD PROTECTION ON THAT CIRCUIT
YOUR EARTHING ARRANGEMENT NEED TO BE CHECKED AND UPGRADED WHERE NECESSARY
YOU NEED A BS7671 : 2008 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION CERTIFICATE
AND
YOU NEED A PART P COMPLIANCE CERT FOR THIS WORK AS ITS NOTIFIABLE,

All the above is bare minimum, now you can trust your friend and not listen to any of our advice or you can at least recognise that it makes no odds to us, but you asked and we are trying to help you

 

[roundthebend]

Thanks tSpark, and thanks to everyone who has commented on this thread.

I'm very confident that there is at least a few well qualified and experienced replies on this thread, and any that aren't seem to be in agreement anyway. The fact that there is a general consensus of opinion on this convinces me that it is more a case of fact than opinion.

My intended point was that I have no proof of anyone's credentials on here. However, the quality and depth of knowledge would suggest that I can indeed trust those who have taken time to respond.

 

[ColJack]

you say your friend is recently qualified? how old is he BTW?

while book smarts are good, most of what we do comes from experience..
we've been there, done that and got the t-shirts to proove it.

it does indeed sound like an overheating fuse.. they're cartridge ones right?

a 30A BS1361 fuse can take about 50A for an hour before it blows ( assuming I'm reading the fuse charts right ) but during that time it will get very warm..

which is likely where your smell is / was coming from...

have you run the shower for an extended period to see if the smell is still present since he's put the 40A breaker in?

 

[roundthebend]

it does indeed sound like an overheating fuse.. they're cartridge ones right?

Erm, i dunno. They look like regular plug fuses but chunkier. I remove the fuse holder, unscrew the two parts, then push a new fuse throught the leg holes and do it all back up. Well, I did. Now the shower has an MCB.

have you run the shower for an extended period to see if the smell is still present since he's put the 40A breaker in?

No. Is it safe?

 

[ColJack]

can't give you a 100% cast iron guarantee without seeing the test results, but 99.5% sure if he upgraded the entire run of cable and not just the run from CU to the switch?

you said he fitted 10mm²? so that should be ok with a 40A breaker..

 

[roundthebend]

Yes, he told me that he was going to fit 10mm² cable. After that, he has fitted a 40A MCB into the existing CU.

I'm led to believe from comments on this thread that the CU might not be rated high enough for a 40A fuse. I'm also led to believe that the pull cord may not be rated high enough.

My concern is that the CU starts to overheat. I won't be able to check because that will involve prodding around inside it. So I'd have to wait until a fire started, or not.

I'm going to give him a call shortly anyway. I was hoping he'd have let us know whether the shower was OK to use or not.

 

[Spark123]

I was under the impression that for a Wylex CU the only place a greater than 32A device should be fitted is next to the main switch, and that is only if it is rated at 100A. The bases are keyed so they only fit in this one position if this is the case.
Still it doesn't appear to have RCD protection which is required to comply with the 17th edn regulations for bathrooms.
Is there a notice of more than one BS7671 colour scheme in use?

 

[roundthebend]

This thing about the RCD gets mentioned a lot. I suspect that what my electrician friend has done is assumed that he is only replacing an existing cable and fuse, and thus it doesn't require the additional work involved in an RCD.

I've read one or two bits of the regs and it certainly reads that way to me. However, I've also read that any work in a "special location" needs to be notified. I was under the impression that he would have done this on my behalf, but only if he is able to self-certify, right?

 

[rebuke]

Replacing a cable you could strictly argue doesn't need notifying, however he has now changed the protective device (30A fuse to 40A MCB), which definitely does need notifying, as it is effectively a new circuit at this point (it just happens to be in the same place as an original one). As it's a new circuit, it should be done to the 17th edition regs, and should have an RCD.

Also, even if you could argue replacing the cable is OK, personally I would fit an RCD, since it's not just one of those bits in the regs that we have to comply with but don't necessarily see the point in, it could save a life in the event of a fault - I wouldn't want to be the last person who worked on a circuit that electrocuted someone in a way that an RCD would catch, and have to try and justify why I didn't fit one...

 

[Spark123]

He has upgraded the circuit, i.e. he has removed the old circuit and installed a new one.
This work requires a full Electrical Installation Certificate to be made out stating that the circuit complies with todays regulations. (There is a section for deviations but for a simple shower circuit there shouldn't be any).
As he has installed a new circuit it is automatically notifiable, as is adding anything in a special location.
Regardless of notifiable or not, making a hash of it also leaves him in violation of P1 of Part P.

 

[roundthebend]

Just spoken to him and I was right. He's under the impression that it is a replacement of the existing circuit and therefore doesn't need to be notified.

I really am at a loss as to what to do. It would seem to me that he's just lacking a bit of experience and has overlooked something. For me, the customer who happens to do some research, to try and point out that he hasn't followed his training it will certainly come across as though I am telling him how to do his job. He will, no doubt, feel offended by that.

Going back to the original question of cost. What he has done is replace about 7-8 metres of chunky cable, installed an MCB (and cut the fuse cover to accommodate), and run some tests.

Parts wise I think that I could have got the bits from Screwfix for under £40. Labour wise it took him and an assistant around 2 hours to complete.

I can foresee a situation where another electrician would need to reroute the cable or run a longer length in order to wire in an RCD and new CU and so we could end up paying twice.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Just spoken to him and I was right. He's under the impression that it is a replacement of the existing circuit and therefore doesn't need to be notified.

He could argue that the existing cable was damaged, and therefore the replacement of it wouldn't be notifiable. But notifiability is unconnected to compliance with the Wiring Regulations, and replacement or no it requires an EIC, test results etc, and it requires RCD protection.

I really am at a loss as to what to do. It would seem to me that he's just lacking a bit of experience and has overlooked something.

I think you're right.

When you said "he only did his exams just over a year ago so I'd expect his knowledge to be reasonably up to date", do you know what qualifications he's got? Is it the full C&G set, or is it the Domestic Installer NVQ?

 

[roundthebend]

He called me back again!

I'd asked about certificates for the work. His call back was to say that he couldn't provide them at the moment - he's waiting for his NAPIT registration to go through. So, I can wait until it does then get the paperwork, or he's offered to get someone in who can provide the paperwork.

There's a caveat though - to get the paperwork it will need testing, and this could reveal other problems like the CU.

He could tell I wasn't happy, and I told him as much. I explained that my research had suggested that it was notifiable work because it wasn't simply replacement AND it is in the bathroom. He disagreed with that, but I suppose it comes down to interpretation.

He also said that he wishes he hadn't taken it on. He wanted to do it because we're mates, but now realises that it can make things awkward. I agreed.

Ultimately, he doesn't want to charge me until I'm happy. I've said that as long as the cable is going to stay in, then I'll happily pay for the installation of it. But, I want the whole job complete first with appropriate certificates in place.