New Zealand

[JohnD]

I said

"Some campaigners maintain that TWAW, and that any person who says "I am a woman" is therefore entitled to all the protections, rights and qualifications of a woman."

Do you claim that there are not some campaigners who maintain that?

"If this is so, any such person is a woman and is therefore entitled to compete as such. Lifestyle, body mass, hormones and genitals are irrelevant.

If they are a woman, they are also entitled to strip naked in womens changing rooms and demand bikini-waxing in a women-only parlour or join a women-only club."

Do you claim that there are not some campaigners who maintain that?

 

[EFLImpudence]

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/06/22/st-pauls-girls-school-hammersmith-london-head-girl-non-binary/​

Pink News ??? That wouldn't be biased would it?

You really are very worrying.

"The school said the main reason for changing the title of head girl was because many senior pupils feel they are young women, but admitted the “binary connotations” were a factor in the decision."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/st-pauls-girls-school-binary-head-girl-b941501.html

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I said

"Some campaigners maintain that TWAW, and that any person who says "I am a woman" is therefore entitled to all the protections, rights and qualifications of a woman."

Do you claim that there are not some campaigners who maintain that?

"If this is so, any such person is a woman and is therefore entitled to compete as such. Lifestyle, body mass, hormones and genitals are irrelevant.

If they are a woman, they are also entitled to strip naked in womens changing rooms and demand bikini-waxing in a women-only parlour or join a women-only club."

Do you claim that there are not some campaigners who maintain that?

Then the campaigners are obviously campaigning under a false assumption. You ought to correct them.
You adopted a campaign based on a false assumption, to present as an incorrect argument.
And now you're asking me if there are any campaigners with incorrect assumptions.
Yes, there are undoubtedly campaigners with incorrect assumptions. You've just quoted them.

 

[JP_]

Antagonists have presented nada, nil, zilch to support their opinion.

Really? I am sure I backed my opinion with references and the like. There was a video shared too, which explained it very well. You can't say you're the only person to have provided support for your opinion.

But again, the question is not, "is Laurel Hubbard a woman?" because as you have repeated many times, tests are done, rules are met. The question is only - should somebody that has had the genetic and hormonal advantages of being a man during their formative athletic years be allowed to compete as a woman, knowing that they have a biological advantage resulting from the years, or in this case, decades, of being a man?

But you don't want to answer that, you just keep replying with irrelevant questions.

So, that facts, again ....

• She is a woman.
• She was a man.
• She was a man that was National MALE junior weightlifting champion
• She was not a man lacking in testosterone, as a man lacking in testosterone would never make national champion.
• She was a man weighing 40kg more than many weightlifting women, and still weighs 130kg
• She has a massive biological advantage gained from having male hormones, which cannot be legally taken as supplements by athletes (male and female)
• If she was always a woman and took testosterone for 20 years, she'd be banned from competing for life
• This is not sporting or fair (even though allowed).

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Pink News ??? That wouldn't be biased would it?

You really are very worrying.

"The school said the main reason for changing the title of head girl was because many senior pupils feel they are young women, but admitted the “binary connotations” were a factor in the decision."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/st-pauls-girls-school-binary-head-girl-b941501.html

Worrying? because I quote the real story, rather than the misrepresented story that you mentioned.
The primary motivation was about age, the binary sex connotations were a secondary factor.

 

[EFLImpudence]

How do you know?

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The question is only - should somebody that has had the genetic and hormonal advantages of being a man during their formative athletic years be allowed to compete as a woman, knowing that they have a biological advantage resulting from the years, or in this case, decades, of being a man?

But you don't want to answer that, you just keep replying with irrelevant questions.

I have answered that question.
The Olympics is a binary sex competition.
It has no way (currently) of making allowances for non-binary issues.
Similarly, it used to have no way of allowing disabled athletes to compete. That has changed.
Maybe the binary, non-binary sex issue may change in the future. Until then the committee is faced with accommodating non-binary sex/gender athletes in a binary competition.
In the meantime. all it can do is work towards making it as fair and as inclusive as it can.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

How do you know?

From your link:

The school said the main reason for changing the title of head girl was because many senior pupils feel they are young women, but admitted the “binary connotations” were a factor in the decision.​

But the school is aware of the non-binary issue:

Around seven of the school’s 778 pupils identify at non-binary, which means they don’t feel comfortable being referred to as male or female.​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I have answered that question.
The Olympics is a binary sex competition.
It has no way (currently) of making allowances for non-binary issues.
Similarly, it used to have no way of allowing disabled athletes to compete. That has changed.
Maybe the binary, non-binary sex issue may change in the future. Until then the committee is faced with accommodating non-binary sex/gender athletes in a binary competition.
In the meantime. all it can do is work towards making it as fair and as inclusive as it can.

And yes, you were right, you had included some evidence to support your comments.
I was really referring to the binary, non-binary issue as argued by JohnD.

 

[JohnD]

You adopted a campaign

I have not "adopted" the campaign as exemplified by Stonewall. I oppose it.

"an ideology promoted since 2015 by the LGBTQ+ pressure group Stonewall. It wants to change the law to allow men to self identify as women, in a process called Self-ID, without undergoing medical intervention. All that matters is that you think and feel like a woman, not your genetic endowment.

Hence the mantra “transwomen ARE women” (TWAW). This is meant in a literal, rather than a metaphorical or dignified sense. Disgreement with this amounts to transphobia."

 

[JP_]

I have answered that question.
The Olympics is a binary sex competition.
It has no way (currently) of making allowances for non-binary issues.

This does not answer that question. My question does not ask about sex/gender

Here it is for the third time: should somebody that has had the genetic and hormonal advantages of being a man during their formative athletic years be allowed to compete as a woman, knowing that they have a biological advantage resulting from the years, or in this case, decades, of being a man?

I am not questioning whether she is or isn't a woman. That is not the question, so stop answering as if it is.

Similarly, it used to have no way of allowing disabled athletes to compete. That has changed.

Yes, but they don't compete in the same competition, do they? They have their own competitions, just like men and women do. Maybe the solution is to only allow transgender to compete in their own categories. But that means, Hubbard should not compete with other women.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I have not "adopted" the campaign as exemplified by Stonewall. I oppose it.

"an ideology promoted since 2015 by the LGBTQ+ pressure group Stonewall. It wants to change the law to allow men to self identify as women, in a process called Self-ID, without undergoing medical intervention. All that matters is that you think and feel like a woman, not your genetic endowment.

Hence the mantra “transwomen ARE women” (TWAW). This is meant in a literal, rather than a metaphorical or dignified sense. Disgreement with this amounts to transphobia."

OK. But self-identifying as a woman is not sufficient to qualify for sporting competitions.
But it was difficult to differentiate between campaign policies/slogans, and your comments.

"If this is so, any such person is a woman and is therefore entitled to compete as such.
Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/new-zealand.573260/page-16#ixzz6yoXrNfml​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

This does not answer that question. My question does not ask about sex/gender

Here it is for the third time: should somebody that has had the genetic and hormonal advantages of being a man during their formative athletic years be allowed to compete as a woman, knowing that they have a biological advantage resulting from the years, or in this case, decades, of being a man?

I am not questioning whether she is or isn't a woman. That is not the question, so stop answering as if it is.



Yes, but they don't compete in the same competition, do they? They have their own competitions, just like men and women do. Maybe the solution is to only allow transgender to compete in their own categories. But that means, Hubbard should not compete with other women.

I have answered your question several times.
The committee decide which competition athletes are allowed to enter. Their choice is not always a perfect fit. And sport is rarely equal.
So they make the best choice available to them.
I would rather see athletes compete, than be excluded from competition.
The article that you posted long ago, shows that this athlete clearly hasn't just transitioned to be more competitive. It's been a lifelong journey for her.
She has already competed as a woman. Her competitiveness as a man may have been handicapped by her low testosterone.

But becoming the first transgender Olympian, after a rule change allowing her to compete, would be just the latest twist in her fascinating life story.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-transgender-weightlifter-Laurel-Hubbard.html​

 

[JP_]

I have answered your question several times.
The committee decide which competition athletes are allowed to enter. Their choice is not always a perfect fit. And sport is rarely equal.

That is not answering the question.

I am not asking the Olympic committee, I am asking you.

Yes or No? That is all you need to answer. I already know what the Olympic Committee decided - that is why we are having this discussion.

 

[JP_]

Her competitiveness as a man may have been handicapped by her low testosterone.

The Junior New Zealand National Weightlifting Champion, may have been handicapped?

You do understand the role of testosterone in muscle growth, don't you?