New Zealand

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

No, that is not what the question is asking. The merits of the question is a man, who has trained as a man, competed as a man, gained all the advantages of being a man, then competing as a woman. That is the question. I didn't ask about some other scenario that has not been discussed.

We cannot be certain that this athlete gained all the advantages of being a man. You have deduced that for yourself. It is not a given that an athlete competing in men's events has had all the advantages of being a man.

 

[JP_]

There is no 'someone else'.

Explain that to Kuinini Manumua, who although has competed for USA, was apparently in line to represent New Zealand as a Tongan (or something like that, maybe as Tonga, but something do to with the Oceania group) in women's weightlifting.

 

[JP_]

We cannot be certain that this athlete gained all the advantages of being a man. You have deduced that for yourself. It is not a given that an athlete competing in men's events has had all the advantages of being a man.

I think that you'll find that it is, in pretty much all cases. Testosterone makes a huge difference. Even a male with low testosterone has a big advantage over women.
And as I "deduced", you don't become a national weightlifting champion with a testosterone deficiency. That's not how athletics / powerlifting works.

 

[JohnD]

There's been no evidence presented that she is a biological male. There have been tests performed to establish that she is female.
Sex isn't binary. We have no idea what her anatomy is as far as sex is concerned.

you are mistaken

she was born a man and lived as a man.

there is no evidence that she has had surgical interventions to make her look like a woman.

There have not been tests to establish that she is a female. I don't know why you persist with this lie. There have been tests to verify that here current testosterone level is quite low. That is not at all the same thing.

Sex is binary. You keep confusing yourself with what is currently called "gender"

You don't consider that the presence of a cock and balls is any obstacle to being a "woman" so her genitalia are irrelevant to you.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Explain that to Kuinini Manumua.

I'm sure it's already been explained to her.
Like I said, sport is rarely equal.
There will always be winners and losers. It's the nature of the game.
The committee do their best to make it as equal as possible, within the constraints of the choices they have.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I think that you'll find that it is, in pretty much all cases. Testosterone makes a huge difference. Even a male with low testosterone has a big advantage over women.
And as I "deduced", you don't become a national weightlifting champion with a testosterone deficiency. That's not how athletics / powerlifting works.

It was at twenty years old that he became a champion, that was a long time ago. He/she then stopped training while dealing with her transitioning issues.

We cannot assume we know the answers to all the questions based on our emotive guesses.

 

[JP_]

How could it have been explained to her, if there is "no somebody else"?

Are you connected to the committee? You seem very keen to support their decision even though it is clearly unfair.

 

[JP_]

It was at twenty years old that he became a champion, that was a long time ago.

Gavin Hubbard
Born 9 February 1978
2012 Hubbard transitioned to female

That's 34 years of being male. Assuming puberty start of 12, 22 years of testosterone production. That advantage does not disappear when you transition.

Competing before her gender transition, Hubbard set New Zealand junior records in 1998 in the newly established M105+ division with snatch 135 kg, clean & jerk 170 kg, total 300 kg.

Again, doesn't sound like somebody who was suffering from a lack of testosterone!

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

you are mistaken

she was born a man and lived as a man.

there is no evidence that she has had surgical interventions to make her look like a woman.

There have not been tests to establish that she is a female. I don't know why you persist with this lie. There have been tests to verify that here current testosterone level is quite low. That is not at all the same thing.

Sex is binary. You keep confusing yourself with what is currently called "gender"

You don't consider that the presence of a cock and balls is any obstacle to being a "woman" so her genitalia are irrelevant to you.

She was assigned the male gender at birth. That doesn't mean that she was or is a male.
The assigning of sex at birth is sometimes guesswork, by poorly qualified attendees, or parents.

The tests were as, you say, designed to assign a gender to the athletes. It was determined that she met the conditions designed to assign her gender as female.
We do not know what her genitalia consists of, nor have we ever known. You don't know that she has a cock and balls. It's a cock and bull assumption by you.

I have presented scientific opinion that sex is not binary. You have presented zilch, nada, nought to support your assertion.

Here is yet another scientific opinion:

Sex refers to a set of biological attributes in humans and animals. It is primarily associated with physical and physiological features including chromosomes, gene expression, hormone levels and function, and reproductive/sexual anatomy. Sex is usually categorized as female or male but there is variation in the biological attributes that comprise sex and how those attributes are expressed.
https://cihr-irsc.gc.ca/e/48642.html​

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

How could it have been explained to her, if there is "no somebody else"?

Are you connected to the committee? You seem very keen to support their decision even though it is clearly unfair.

The "no someone else" referred to other competitors.
It did not refer to the committee.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Gavin Hubbard
Born 9 February 1978
2012 Hubbard transitioned to female

That's 34 years of being male. Assuming puberty start of 12, 22 years of testosterone production. That advantage does not disappear when you transition.

Competing before her gender transition, Hubbard set New Zealand junior records in 1998 in the newly established M105+ division with snatch 135 kg, clean & jerk 170 kg, total 300 kg.

Again, doesn't sound like somebody who was suffering from a lack of testosterone!

Your dates are a bit exaggerated in your favour.

But in 2001, at 23, Hubbard quit the sport as the pressure of living as a man became too much.
She transitioned and came out as a woman in her mid 30s - and has been extremely private since.
From your link.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-transgender-weightlifter-Laurel-Hubbard.html​

She quit the sport shortly after her 1998 championship because life as a man was too difficult.
You don't transition overnight. It could have taken her years. Perhaps it took her ten years. Five years is not uncommon.

I believe you also said that she was not successful competing against men after her championship. Sounds like she may have been suffering form a lack of testosterone.

Tried and failed, was not good enough to beat men.

​

 

[transam]

There is an on going court case over if under 16 ‘s can consent to
Puberty blockers

a ruling some while back that under 16’s are un likely to be able to give informed consent to take said drugs

this case is being brought by an NHS trust who are challenging the ruling

yep tax payers money is being used up in legal fees over this caper

jeez us wept

 

[Vinty]

I remember getting a slap round the ear at school, it was during a sex education class.
The teacher said that a hermaphrodite had both male and female bits
I asked the teacher did that mean a hermaphrodite could have sex with itself and get pregnant, she gave me a hell of slap and said don't be stupid.
I thought a i had asked a perfectly reasonable question at the time.

 

[noseall]

She was assigned the male gender at birth. That doesn't mean that she was or is a male.
The assigning of sex at birth is sometimes guesswork, by poorly qualified attendees, or parents.

Medically speaking, that particular human was born a male, irrespective of the fact that the birth must have been attended by a dining table. I'm also certain that by the time the birth was registered, everyone would have worked out that that particular human was a testosterone producing male - even if they named him Shirley.

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Medically speaking, that particular human was born a male, irrespective of the fact that the birth must have been attended by a dining table. I'm also certain that by the time the birth was registered, everyone would have worked out that that particular human was a testosterone producing male - even if they named him Shirley.

How do you know she was born a male?
We both agree she was assigned the male gender, it said so on her birth certificate, but I don't think any of us can be sure of her genital anatomy at birth.