Next...the Kitchen!!

[sergeantash]

Its been a while since I started working on my house again, but its time now to conquer the kitchen/diner!! To give the background, my house is a 1927's brick house, 9ft ceilings and a rather odd finish on the brickwork of about 5cm black mortar, then a white lime like plaster on top. The walls have then been papered.

I need a nice stable surface so as to get the finish that I'm aiming to achieve, throughout the rest of the house I have plastered on top of existing plaster only for it to crack during the following 12 months. The ceiling is lathe/plaster which is rather unstable and so I intend to pull it all down

So now onto my plan, I really need confirmation that I'm on the right tracks here or whether there's an alternative to my plan.

I intend on ripping down the ceiling plaster, based on the condition of the lathes I may leave them up, I'll then lift fresh plasterboard up and nailgun/screw into the joists. I'll then rip off all plaster from the walls down to the original brick, then baton the walls and attach plasterboard.

Questions...

1. Do ceiling lathes provide any structural integrity, i.e. would I be doing a disjustice in ripping them down?

2. What thickness plasterboard should I use for the ceiling and walls?

3. Should batons be positioned vertically, horizontally, or both? How thick/deep should they be? How far apart?

4. When running electrics behind the newly erected wall plasterboard, do I shroud it in plastic ducting? Are there any regulations I need to adhere to for these new electric runs?

Thanks in advance for your help!

The Diner part of the Kitchen Diner!

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• sergeantash
• 19 Jun 2011
• 1

Shows how easily the current plaster is coming from the wall

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• sergeantash
• 19 Jun 2011
• 1

Cross-section of the current plaster!

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• sergeantash
• 19 Jun 2011
• 1

The plaster coming away from the ceiling!

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• sergeantash
• 19 Jun 2011
• 1

More of the ceiling!

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• sergeantash
• 19 Jun 2011
• 1

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[1john]

1. Do ceiling lathes provide any structural integrity, i.e. would I be doing a disjustice in ripping them down?

2. What thickness plasterboard should I use for the ceiling and walls?

3. Should batons be positioned vertically, horizontally, or both? How thick/deep should they be? How far apart?

4. When running electrics behind the newly erected wall plasterboard, do I shroud it in plastic ducting? Are there any regulations I need to adhere to for these new electric runs?

1 - no, it will be easier to pull them down, btw you wont nail gun a plasterboard to anything, drywall screws only, 38mm

2 - 12.5mm all round, consider using OSB/ply over the battons first for a guaranteed fixing everywhere

3 - top and bottom they should be horizontal and then vertically at 400mm centers, I use 2x1 normally.

4 - all the electrical work in the kitchen is notifiable, read up on part P, it will be cheaper and safer to involve an electrician from the start, they may be happy for you to do alot of the work if they are able to inspect it and they will test, certify and notify the work for you.

 

[sergeantash]

Thanks for your reply John, really appreciate it, a few more questions:

1 - no, it will be easier to pull them down, btw you wont nail gun a plasterboard to anything, drywall screws only, 38mm

Do I simply screw them through the plasterboard or drill a pilot hole first, I would be worried about cracking/fracturing the board.

2 - 12.5mm all round, consider using OSB/ply over the battons first for a guaranteed fixing everywhere

I'm a bit confused by the 'OSB/Ply over the battons', do you mean laminate the battons with ply?

3 - top and bottom they should be horizontal and then vertically at 400mm centers, I use 2x1 normally.

I assume thats inches (2x1)? Would I mount the battons so that the 2" side is coming away from the wall, or the 1"? Is there any guidance on securing the battons, i.e. gap between fixing screws? I was considering using those screws which come pre-attached to a rawlplug (fixing screws?), you then hammer them through a hole in the batton and into a predrilled hole in the wall, would they be suitable?

Also, with the horizontal runs top/bottom, I'll start with the ceiling first, then how far below the ceiling plasterboard and above the floor level should the horizontal battons be attached?

4 - all the electrical work in the kitchen is notifiable, read up on part P, it will be cheaper and safer to involve an electrician from the start, they may be happy for you to do alot of the work if they are able to inspect it and they will test, certify and notify the work for you.

Agreed, I'll find someone locally to come in and give some guidance.

Am I on the right track with using Battons instead of dot/dab? I feel that with battons I'll get a more stable/smooth finish, plus it seems far easier?

 

[joe-90]

If you use batons take the opportunity to put insulation inside the little cavities.

 

[sergeantash]

If you use batons take the opportunity to put insulation inside the little cavities.

Nice idea, although I am hoping not to bring the room in too much so won't have much spare for insulation, I guess some is better than none though in such an old house!

 

[charlescaz]

Would it not be easier to build a suspended ceiling , then put the plasterboard onto it ,plaster etc . The electrics could be done then in the frame itself ( maybe down lights installed ? ) . just a thought

 

[novicebuteager]

well that ceiling looks very similar to a job i have just completed,i have had plenty of good advice from these guys.
i took out a partition (similar to you) i have lath and plaster aswell but i just repaired the missing areas of plaster with plasterboard till flush,then overboarded the lot with 9.5mm t/edge.
although i will use 12.5mm on my further ceilings.
i kept my existing cove and used edge bead this also sopports the edge.
i used 63mm plasterboard screws and everything pulled back to the joists with ease.pre drill yes as going in blind often hits existing nail heads in laths..
your walls,well if it was my place i would go back to brick.
electrics get an electrician but do chases/labour work for them.
good luck.

 

[sergeantash]

I have considered before the idea of a false ceiling or just over-boarding the lot, my worry is that I would have to identify carefully where the joists are (and its a big room!), secondly I would be concerned about accidently drilling into power/plumbing running within the void.

The advantage of ripping it all down, even though bl00dy messy, is that it would expose everything, allowing me to in some cases tidy power/plumbing, whilst also giving me precise identification of the joist runs.

Out of curiosity, if stripping down to this level, would I put insulation between the joists?

 

[novicebuteager]

anyway which ever way you do it, after its all finished you will be very happy with the extra space.
worth the mess.

 

[charlescaz]

Out of curiosity, if stripping down to this level, would I put insulation between the joists?

Generally no , but don't quote me on that !! ( scratching my brain here or just having a blond moment or is that just the age thing again haha ) a general "tidy" of the electrics and plumbing is a good idea as it also alleviates any future "potential" problems . I would get an electrician in to check it . Depending on your skill and experience you could possibly do yourself and get a cert from a electrician once he's inspected it ?

The wall i would definetely hack the old plaster off pva etc , render then multi-finish . saves losing that little bit of extra space .

Again just a thought to try and help

 

[sergeantash]

The wall i would definetely hack the old plaster off pva etc , render then multi-finish . saves losing that little bit of extra space .

Again just a thought to try and help

Thanks Charles, but would you really just render the walls without plasterboarding? Thats a horrible thought to me as its a massive room (20ft x 30ft roughly) and even with a great plasterer the finish would never be perfectly flat as the walls themselves are made from odd shaped bricks in case cases. For the sake of losing a few centimeters it seems much easier to me to batton and plasterboard? Plus its easier for fixtures/fitting as I'll have a new cavity, that I can also insulate.

 

[Richard C]

Render & plaster is often not the best choice if you’re tiling over most of it; if you use render don’t plaster skim, it significantly reduces tile weight which can be a problem if you’re using large format tiles. If you use conventional render, you must leave it 4 weeks before tiling; if time is a factor, use a quickset render but it’s more expensive.

Regards electrical work; a kitchen is a special location & the work you can do in there without a Building Notice or preferable using a Part P electrician is very limited; any work must be tested & have a minor works certificate. If you DIY without LABC notification & inspection, you will be extremely unlikely to find a registered spark who will sign it off; it’s illegal for him to do so. The best he will be able to offer is a periodic inspection report which only covers circuit testing, it doesn’t not certify the work has been carried out in accordance with Building Regulations which could give you a problem in the future.

 

[sergeantash]

Render & plaster is often not the best choice if you’re tiling over most of it; if you use render don’t plaster skim, it significantly reduces tile weight which can be a problem if you’re using large format tiles. If you use conventional render, you must leave it 4 weeks before tiling; if time is a factor, use a quickset render but it’s more expensive.

Sorry Richard, although this is a kitchen/diner, the majority is going to be painted wall, not tiled. Based on that, would you knock off all old plaster and render or batten/plasterboard?

OR an alternative is that I attach the plasterboard straight to the walls, without battens?

 

[1john]

Do I simply screw them through the plasterboard or drill a pilot hole first, I would be worried about cracking/fracturing the board.

yes just screw through the board, you can get bits for your cordless that will aid you in not putting the screw too far into the board, the screw head needs to be flush with the board but not rip through the paper.

I'm a bit confused by the 'OSB/Ply over the battons', do you mean laminate the battons with ply?

Once you have battened the walls you can sheet the walls with ply or OSB before plasterboarding, if you want to do an awesome job you could apply D4 glue to the battens before you nail/screw up the plywood.

I assume thats inches (2x1)? Would I mount the battons so that the 2" side is coming away from the wall, or the 1"? Is there any guidance on securing the battons, i.e. gap between fixing screws? I was considering using those screws which come pre-attached to a rawlplug (fixing screws?), you then hammer them through a hole in the batton and into a predrilled hole in the wall, would they be suitable?

Yes in inches, roofing batten is good for this. Screw the battons to the wall with the 2" width facing you, it would be awkward to butt up two plasterboards on a 1" face of timber. My choice for fixing is usually tapcons with plastic packers behind each fixing, I tend to make fixings between 600mm and 800mm intervals sometimes more if the timber is a bit bowed and needs straightening up, I then use low expansion foam to fill the voids.

Also, with the horizontal runs top/bottom, I'll start with the ceiling first, then how far below the ceiling plasterboard and above the floor level should the horizontal battons be attached?

Keep the top batten tight to your freshly boarded ceiling and the bottom board about half inch off the floor

Am I on the right track with using Battons instead of dot/dab? I feel that with battons I'll get a more stable/smooth finish, plus it seems far easier?

Dot and dab is much quicker but you dont get the service void or room for insulation, as joe90 suggested, the void you will have would accomodate 25mm celotex/kingspan etc. The other benefit with battens is that you can spend all the time in the world getting the walls and corners as straight, true and square as you desire.

 

[Richard C]

Unless there is a need for insulation (which would be of benefit to you), dot & dab is usually my preferred method. However, D&D onto solid external walls is not a good idea as it produces cold spots which can lead to condensation & solid brick tends to suffer damp & unless you fit a waterproof membrane or take other measures you can get all sorts of nasties growing behind the plasterboard; I would opt for battens with perhaps a membrane & some insulation as joe suggests; you could still D&D the internal walls though.