NHS R.I.P
- Thread starter ellal
- Start date
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The problem the Tories face is a good number of them want to copy more of the continental models, private insurance (government subsidised for those who can't afford it), charges to see your GP, the French model if you will.
But this means significant change to the NHS, even the destruction of it as an organisation (there is no French, nordic etc NHS).
And this meets cries of "you want to leave people dying on the streets" and "you want to make us like america where the poor don't get treatment" (which is false anyway as they spend more per person on healthcare than us).
And of course the Tories also just get accused of penny pinching, but think about it, why? It's not their money, they are not being lobbied by anyone to spend less on healthcare (if anything the opposite), they talk of saving money to departments or pensions, but not of actually reducing the overall budget, so doesn't this "penny pinching" accusation seem a little thin?
But, any time they propose changes, they get the above, and so plans to change the NHS get watered down, and we end up with faux privatization which could be even worse than the centrally planned NHS model.
I can't see it changing, the NHS is treated by to many as an almost religious institution, and any whiff of changing the NHS is meet with hostile resistance.
But this means significant change to the NHS, even the destruction of it as an organisation (there is no French, nordic etc NHS).
And this meets cries of "you want to leave people dying on the streets" and "you want to make us like america where the poor don't get treatment" (which is false anyway as they spend more per person on healthcare than us).
And of course the Tories also just get accused of penny pinching, but think about it, why? It's not their money, they are not being lobbied by anyone to spend less on healthcare (if anything the opposite), they talk of saving money to departments or pensions, but not of actually reducing the overall budget, so doesn't this "penny pinching" accusation seem a little thin?
But, any time they propose changes, they get the above, and so plans to change the NHS get watered down, and we end up with faux privatization which could be even worse than the centrally planned NHS model.
I can't see it changing, the NHS is treated by to many as an almost religious institution, and any whiff of changing the NHS is meet with hostile resistance.
B
Big Tone
Oh, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard anti-American and ignorant chants like that. “They look for your credit card and if they can’t find it they leave you to rot on the street”. Yes, when I was there I did notice dead bodies littering the streets everywhere come to think of it.
Yes! They keep saying the money pot has been ring-fenced but if that were true why have we, (working in the NHS), seen such massive cutbacks with the loss of staff and resources galore? My department used to have approx 32 people, (not 'dead wood'), with a mixture of different skills, but a rough headcount now is easily half that. No one has been booted out, yet, but people leave and they are not replaced. With morale being so low and the work so $h1tty, ever more are leaving which exacerbates the situation further of course.
Said like you must also work for them. I don’t know how you know but once again you’re spot on. What also bugs the hell out of me is they’ll always find money for bailing out bankers, wars and overseas aid. Take India. I can’t remember the figure but this, (now 1st world capable of self supporting), country still gets billions from us every year; along with other countries.
Call me old fashioned, but I used to think charity starts at home. When I was unemployed I didn’t give to good causes because I couldn't afford it, but now I am working and solvent I do what I can. So why shouldn’t/doesn't this simple logic work with nations? We pay billions a day just on the interest of our national debt alone. The phrase “when you’re in a hole stop digging” springs to mind. Good housekeeping and balancing the books shouldn't be so radically different between a home or a nation - should it?
It’s people like you that keep me on this web site Aron. You’re the kind I imagine I could enjoy a pint with on the evening; especially if you’re buying.
Some others I could happily just throw my pint in their face...Sponsored Links
B
Big Tone
I don’t pretend to know what bent statistics the Government have used to bolster their figures Chapeau, I only know what I see with my own eyes and know to be happening around me and in the Care Homes, Hospices and Hospitals I visit. The main problem is people believe what they read and it’s not until some whistleblower has the temerity to put his or her head above the parapet, or a FOI request reveals the truth, you hear cries of “well would you believe it!”
When someone is suffering, or dying, it’s of no comfort to them to hear how statistically they are better off because the Government says so. But all this is nothing new and certainly not unique to this Government. I read this at the time, from years ago, under Labour. How do you like these apples..
“NHS spent a 'staggering' £313million on management consultants in Labour's last year”
“The Royal College of Nursing describes the amount of money the NHS in England spends on management consultants as 'utterly shocking'.”
“These figures are utterly shocking when you consider the difference that this money could have made to patients. A very significant sum of money is clearly being spent on setting up competition in the NHS and pursuing Foundation status, rather than being invested in patient care.”
http://www.rcn.org.uk/newsevents/news/article/uk/nhs_spending_on_management_consultants_is_shocking
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gering-313million-management-consultants.html
After years of complete waste, inefficiency and incompetence under both Parties they are now shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. As always, with both Parties, something has to get to screaming pitch and a big media outcry before they react - and then they appear to go into a blind panic. I mean really, seriously – I honestly thought it was a joke when I heard the proposal for a pasty tax. Are we going to go back to a window or brick tax next? It’s like the nutters are in control of the asylum!
Will the last person to leave England please turn off the lights...
When someone is suffering, or dying, it’s of no comfort to them to hear how statistically they are better off because the Government says so. But all this is nothing new and certainly not unique to this Government. I read this at the time, from years ago, under Labour. How do you like these apples..
“NHS spent a 'staggering' £313million on management consultants in Labour's last year”
“The Royal College of Nursing describes the amount of money the NHS in England spends on management consultants as 'utterly shocking'.”
“These figures are utterly shocking when you consider the difference that this money could have made to patients. A very significant sum of money is clearly being spent on setting up competition in the NHS and pursuing Foundation status, rather than being invested in patient care.”
http://www.rcn.org.uk/newsevents/news/article/uk/nhs_spending_on_management_consultants_is_shocking
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...gering-313million-management-consultants.html
After years of complete waste, inefficiency and incompetence under both Parties they are now shutting the gate after the horse has bolted. As always, with both Parties, something has to get to screaming pitch and a big media outcry before they react - and then they appear to go into a blind panic. I mean really, seriously – I honestly thought it was a joke when I heard the proposal for a pasty tax. Are we going to go back to a window or brick tax next? It’s like the nutters are in control of the asylum!
Will the last person to leave England please turn off the lights...
How is that a flaw in the argument, rather proof of it?
More staff, more management. Vastly more processes to avoid litigious situations = lower productivity. Hospitals now have "healthcare assistants" to do what nurses used to do, does anyone know what nurses do any-more?
Hospital PFI contracts, wasted money on unused prescriptions, an increase in unnecessary surgeries (breast op's for some bird who was sad about having small breasts).
Spending and employment in the NHS marches ever onwards and upwards, but like all centrally controlled monolithic organisations, it never really seems to translate into ever onwards and upwards performance, instead it's performance stagnates.
This isn't some super secret, this is what any economist will tell you how a monopolistic corporate type entity will behave, waste and inefficiency with wages disproportionately collecting at the higher management.
Find me someone who doesn't have a bias, and I'll show you an android.
B
Big Tone
Quite likely; I’m just as cynical as you from the sounds of it.
But, all I care about and all the patient’s care about is what care they are actually receiving.I don’t want to get into the politics and we, as HCPs, (health care professionals), shouldn’t have to. I don’t hold the purse strings and I’m not an accountant. I just don’t like being told how well or better or how streamlined things are, or any other buzz word they come up with, when we know damn well they are not.
If there’s money in the pot for patients the NHS I’m bug.gered if I know where it’s going. If there are axes to grind or vested interests, all I can say is every HCP I have mentioned feel exactly the same way and see the very same things as I do. It should be of great concern to us all but it’s human nature, or the British stiff upper lip, not to complain I guess.
Today, just, I’ve found out I can get on with the one patient’s requirements, after waiting for months, because it’s the new financial year. His condition has deteriorated though, because of the wait, so the telephone access he so dearly wanted is no longer required because he can no longer speak, as he wanted, to his family.
As I said, I could write a book on what they are not telling you – what you never get to read or hear about...
J
joinerjohn
I think the major problem with the NHS is , too many chiefs and not enough indians. If you needed a life saving operation, who would you want to make the decision to allow you that operation,,, The doctor/consultant,,, or the accountant? I know which one I'd like to make the decision. (and it wouldn't be some jumped up idiot with a degree in business studies )
Another thing,,, Why do the nursing staff have so much paperwork to complete each shift? In this technological day and age, a lot of the pen pushing could be automated. Equipment could become integrated into the hospital system, so when nursey comes and takes your blood pressure, checks your vitals etc, the machines used to take them could communicate with the hospital computer system and save the nurse from writers cramp. Nursey spends more time actually nursing, instead of pen pushing. (or would that mean less jobs because a computers being used ? )
Another thing,,, Why do the nursing staff have so much paperwork to complete each shift? In this technological day and age, a lot of the pen pushing could be automated. Equipment could become integrated into the hospital system, so when nursey comes and takes your blood pressure, checks your vitals etc, the machines used to take them could communicate with the hospital computer system and save the nurse from writers cramp. Nursey spends more time actually nursing, instead of pen pushing. (or would that mean less jobs because a computers being used ? )
This is certainly true. If they got rid of many of the most highly paid administrators, perhaps they would find they have more money than they realised. If it was possible in the early 1900s to run hospitals efficiently without the need for a vast army of pen pushers (and that was without the 'benefit' of computers), it should be possible to do so now.
Ever since nursing became a graduate profession, nurses seem to see themselves as above patient care and tend to leave that to nursing auxiliaries (or whatever they're called now). Many of them see themselves as 'almost, but not qualified, doctors' these days.
Another couple of strategies: refuse to admit anyone who has not earned the right to NHS treatment, and definitely turn away 'Saturday night drunks' from Casualty departments.
But that's the problem with this privatisation of the NHS...I think the major problem with the NHS is , too many chiefs and not enough indians. If you needed a life saving operation, who would you want to make the decision to allow you that operation,,, The doctor/consultant,,, or the accountant? I know which one I'd like to make the decision. (and it wouldn't be some jumped up idiot with a degree in business studies )
The Tories claim that it will be the doctors that will make the decisions, but that is furthest from the truth...It will be the profit making organisations calling the shots, and the number of 'bean counters' will increase further in years to come!
M
mdf290
Big Tone - I sympathise with you. The problem is that long term care or even pallative care is just not sexy neither is mental health or dementia etc.
These are all areas where you don't 'cure' people so in effect my the big wigs its seen as a money pit and to be honest the more who slip off the radar the better.
Much sexier is curing people with fantastic new treatments and performing brilliant operations that save lives all of that makes good PR and helps the NHS to hold out its begging bowl because you can't let people die that you can save with a wonderful new cure can you?
But do you notice something about the area you work in? How many consultants work in the caring part of the nhs. I would guess actually none perhaps just a few GPsi's GPs with special interests possibly dementia. The money in the NHS all gets sucked towards greedy doctors and consultants.
Personally having been a manger running an NHS contract I would never criticise NHS managers ever again.
The only reason they are there is to try and get the Doctors to actually do some work. Ok it might seem pointless keeping track of figures but those figures are used to determine what use or values for money services are and to spot the people taking the **** and not doing what they should according to their contracts.
Doctors are **** and without managers they would literally all be off on the golf course all day long.
These are all areas where you don't 'cure' people so in effect my the big wigs its seen as a money pit and to be honest the more who slip off the radar the better.
Much sexier is curing people with fantastic new treatments and performing brilliant operations that save lives all of that makes good PR and helps the NHS to hold out its begging bowl because you can't let people die that you can save with a wonderful new cure can you?
But do you notice something about the area you work in? How many consultants work in the caring part of the nhs. I would guess actually none perhaps just a few GPsi's GPs with special interests possibly dementia. The money in the NHS all gets sucked towards greedy doctors and consultants.
Personally having been a manger running an NHS contract I would never criticise NHS managers ever again.
The only reason they are there is to try and get the Doctors to actually do some work. Ok it might seem pointless keeping track of figures but those figures are used to determine what use or values for money services are and to spot the people taking the **** and not doing what they should according to their contracts.
Doctors are **** and without managers they would literally all be off on the golf course all day long.
J
joinerjohn
I personally believe, it's time the weekend drunkards, needing hospital treatment should be charged exactly the same way a victim of a Road Traffic Accident, is charged by the NHS for treatment (including the cost of the ambulance etc) Last RTA I was injured in they charged me about £35 for an x ray (passed on to my insurance company to deal with,,, but I can't see anyone insuring someone against getting drunk on a Friday/Saturday night)
Just out of interest, would you charge a sunday afternoon footballer for an injury sustained?
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