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NICEIC snags and solutions book

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by RF Lighting, 23 Jul 2020.

  1. RF Lighting

    RF Lighting

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    I have just seen an excerpt posted elsewhere from the NICEIC snags and solutions part 2 book.

    This has left me a little confused.

    2693A36C-4243-41CC-BE67-DD48DF947796.png

    I’m referring to the middle section. How can you install a fan in this manner, and still comply with the last paragraph of regulation 411.3.1.1:
    “A circuit protective conductor shall be run to and terminated at each point in wiring and at each accessory except a lampholder having no exposed-conductive-parts and suspended from such a point.”

    :confused:
     
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  3. plugwash

    plugwash

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    How exactly are "point" and "accessory" defined? (or are they just left up to interpretation?)
     
  4. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    There is also the mentioned 514.4.3 which, according to 514.4.2, is the only case allowed of oversleeving G/Y - which does not apply in the example.


    What was the question to which that is supposed to be a solution?


    Typical NICEIC.
     
  5. RF Lighting

    RF Lighting

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    BS 7671 definitions:

    Accessory A device, other than current-using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation.

    Point (in wiring) A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.
     
  6. EFLImpudence

    EFLImpudence

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    I now see my point only applies to single-core cables.
     
  7. plugwash

    plugwash

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    Based on those definitions, I would argue that a short loop of flex from an outlet box to a piece of current-using equipment is not fixed wiring and that therefore the "point" is the outlet box and the flex does not need a CPC.

    On the other hand I would argue that if someone clips a flex to the wall, feeds it through conduits etc then the flex is now fixed wiring, the "point" is the end of the flex and the flex does need a CPC.
     
  8. Risteard

    Risteard

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    Obviously you would still need a cpc at the point in the wiring, so the picture might be misleading. However the advice is essentially correct which is that a green/yellow core in a multicore cable may be remarked and be utilised as a live conductor. Yes a cpc must still be run to and terminated at that point in the wiring however.
     
  9. sparkwright

    sparkwright

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    As Ristead says, you can use the green and yellow of a round flex as a live conductor (if sleeved), and run a seperate cpc.

    The chances of this happening are slim.

    The picture didn't show an earth wire at the appliance, which is misleading.

    It reminds us that the actual cable doesn't need an cpc, but the accessory does.
     
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  11. scousespark

    scousespark

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    That arrangement is fairly common when the accessory is Class II as the 3 cores are the same size. It is snags and solutions so the focus is on dealing with what you find. Installing new, there would be pennies difference between 3 and 4 core, so it would make sense to use 4 core.
     
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  12. Adam_151

    Adam_151

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    Very poor show of the NICEIC to be recommending this as a solution! Technically they are right, the regs do permit oversleeving of a green/yellow, but so is everyone here ref 411.3.1.1 which they neglect to mention. It would have been better to approach it from the angle of how you deal with it on an EICR.... C3 if flex is oversleeved and no separate earth provided. C2 if its a 6491 thats misused and most certainly *at least* a C2 if its the cpc of a t/e. When I had this conversion once before, the best answer came from someone who definatly knows their onions and was along the lines of "It is actually allowed (putting aside the issue of a cpc to everypoint), don't get me wrong though its dead rough and if I'd found anyone had done it, they would be redoing it with 4c"
     
  13. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I have seen the same done with tank thermostats, and the major problem is the over sleeving falls off, and not all tank thermostats are class II and not all fans are class II, so when replaced there is a good chance the bi-coloured wire ends up on the earth terminal, it is technically allowed, but I would say bad practice, since 1966 we have been required to run an earth wire to lights, even if not used, only the drop from ceiling rose to bulb holder may have no earth. Although I know since 1966 lights needed earths, I have never really hunted for the regulations which says that.

    For the wiring not to be fixed, it has to be short, so what is the problem using 4 core when less than 1 meter. And fixed wiring needs an earth.
     
  14. Adam_151

    Adam_151

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    I'm just looking at the first picture and thinking, when did you ever see a plastic timer fan bush and coupled to a trunking...
     
  15. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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    My Father in law in sheltered accomodation, all new/alterations are done in minitrunking. When his bathroom was converted to wetroom they fitted a more powerful fan and for some reason added new trunking & 1mm² between fan, light & existing isolator leaving the existing 1.5mm² in place in buried steel conduit, seemingly ready for re-use.

    So yes in minitrunking but no, not drilled and bushed
     
  16. ericmark

    ericmark

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    I strikes me that person giving the advice is an English student rather than an electrician. We know what should be done, but it seems that does not matter, they follow the BS7671 even if clearly it was not intended to be read that way.
     
  17. SUNRAY

    SUNRAY

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    Ah but if that's what's written then we can follow with impunity.
     
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