No new petrol or diesel cars by 2040

that's interesting .... the graph suggests that violent crime was growing using the old method, until the old method was discontinued; and continued growing under the new method, until it reached a peak in 2005, when there was a persistent decline until about 2014
Indeed, apart from the last bit. The steady decline was until about 2013. As I said before, since then there has been a progressive increase, rising to a level in 2016 which was appreciably greater than the 2005 peak.
Tracking back 20 years, I wonder what the "lead in petrol" chart shows us for UK around 1985 ....
1985 - 6.5
1986 - 2.9
Yes, that would be consistent with the TEL hypothesis. However, as above, the UK violent crime figures seem to indicate that, since 2013, something even 'worse' at increasing violent crime has taken over from environmental TEL !

Kind Regards, John
 
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I saw a research program suggesting batteries will be discarded for high capacity capacitors, they can be charged in seconds and take up less room than batteries.
Work out the current required for that, bearing in mind that that these batteries are sized in 10s of kWH :rolleyes: And then work out what's needed power station wise to supply all that power :eek:
 
Work out the current required for that, bearing in mind that that these batteries are sized in 10s of kWH :rolleyes: And then work out what's needed power station wise to supply all that power :eek:
In terms of what foxhole was suggesting, it's only in the peripheral parts of the distribution network that the astronomical currents would cause (astronomical!) problems. Further upstream, because of 'averaging' ('diversity' if you wish) it would not matter to generators or distributors whether each consumer used, say, 10kW for 5 hours or the equivalent 12,000kW for 15 seconds to charge their battery/capacitor. The total kWh required of the generators would be the same in either case, as would (roughly) the average current in the EHV parts of the network.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I saw a research program suggesting batteries will be discarded for high capacity capacitors, they can be charged in seconds and take up less room than batteries.
Work out the current required for that, bearing in mind that that these batteries are sized in 10s of kWH :rolleyes: And then work out what's needed power station wise to supply all that power :eek:

I saw a research program suggesting batteries will be discarded for high capacity capacitors, they can be charged in seconds and take up less room than batteries.
Do some sums on the size of cables that would be needed to recharge a car in seconds.

Why is there no Smug smiley? :p
 
In terms of what foxhole was suggesting, it's only in the peripheral parts of the distribution network that the astronomical currents would cause (astronomical!) problems.
I think that "only" trivialises the problem, given that it would affect every single filling/charging station in the country.
 
I think that "only" trivialises the problem, given that it would affect every single filling/charging station in the country.
I wasn't attempting to trivialise the problem; if such has been my intention, I I doubt that I would have described it as an 'astronomical problem'!

I was responding to Simon's post which appeared to be suggesting that very rapid charging would put excessive demands on power stations, whereas the 'only' actual problem would be the ridiculously high currents that would be required in peripheral parts of the network (and, yes, that includes all 'charging points'), without there being any additional burden for the power stations or the more central parts of the distribution network.

Kind Regards, John
 
What's the effective wattage for a petrol pump? Maybe a litre a second, the car engine is about 30% efficient, so how does it work out?

Also remember regarding the charging a capacitor, the huge cables are needed for high current, however there's no reason to charge them off lv, we could use up to 11kv if it would help. If you're charging overnight at home then you can charge whatever rate your installation is designed for.
 
What's the effective wattage for a petrol pump? Maybe a litre a second, the car engine is about 30% efficient, so how does it work out?
1l of petrol is 9.5kWh, 1l of diesel is 9.9 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density#Energy_density_in_energy_storage_and_in_fuel).

If we use the less onerous petrol figure, 9.5kWh/s, that makes each pump a 34.2MW appliance. If you want to use a 30% efficiency factor, then it's a 10.26MW one.


Also remember regarding the charging a capacitor, the huge cables are needed for high current, however there's no reason to charge them off lv, we could use up to 11kv if it would help.
Don't know if it would.

I am not sure I would like to stand in the rain, with wet hands, holding a connector with 11kV at its pins.
 
Also remember regarding the charging a capacitor, the huge cables are needed for high current, however there's no reason to charge them off lv, we could use up to 11kv if it would help.
Quite apart from the problems associated with using HV, that's only about a factor of 50 different from 230V, so, using the example I gave, I think you would still be talking about around 1,000A (at 11kV) for a 15-second (50kWh) charge. Furthermore, you presumably are not suggesting that the capacitor would be charged to 11kV, so that the current within the car after the voltage had been 'down-transformed' would again be 'thousands of amps'.

Kind Regards, John
 
I live in North Wales, so in the country rather than large town, I only know one person with an electric car, he is the milk man he has a Kango which said it had a range of 100 miles, his round has a fixed length of 68 miles, so it seemed ideal, plenty of leeway. However in the winter in spite of not using cab heater he has on a few times not made it home. He actually got stopped by Police for not making normal progress while trying to limp home last few miles.

What is also a problem, if he does need recovering, then late home, so not enough time to recharge, so he has to have a second vehicle just in case. In spite of problems, he says it still saves him a lot of money, electric is cheaper than petrol, but only if used every day because batteries are rented, he only owns the van, so he pays rental even if van not used, so unlike his stand by pick-up which just costs tax and insurance and MOT if not used, the petrol car costs quite a bit even if not used.

OK his charges from 9 am when he returns from round, but most people will charge over night, so unless you have a battery swap system then solar power is useless. I remember the Bedford CF van of the 1970's which had a Lucas electric system as a option, it never took off, but the system had two versions, one recharge in the vehicle the other dropped the batteries and then picked up a charged set.

Howard Hughes made a steam car, and used all panels to condense the steam to get the range, then one day he thought about an accident, so he set up a demo, and throw a hammer at the car and the panel exploded, we also had a similar problem using north sea gas, it needed cooling so in an accident if the insulation is damaged the safety valve must let the pressure release so huge fire risk. With the electric car what happens to the batteries in a pile up?

The problem of charging so many batteries over night would be massive, although we may have a 100A supply, on average we use far less than 20A on average, we would need a whole new infrastructure. And also a problem with the bill.

If we think of electric 1/3 price of petrol and we at moment pay £60 a week on petrol, that's around £260 extra on the quarter bill, the bill would have to be monthly or there would be huge arrears and getting the money for electric used would be a problem.

With our phones we have external battery packs, so we can charge the phone in our pocket, we would need same with car, a built in battery plus a battery which could be quickly swapped.
 
Mmmm another Wilson moment, what is a battery, a capacitor, a reservoir, well a battery is a group of items be it canons or electric storage cells, so the AA cell is not really a battery as it is a single cell, but the massive difference between the capacitor and rest is the capacitor does not change the type of energy, most the others do, so Dinorwig Power Station which was once described as worlds biggest battery changes electrical energy into kinetic energy as it pumps the water up the mountain.

However be it hydraulics, pneumatics, or electrics there is a limit on how much power can be transfer in a given time. Chemical energy takes time to be pumped into a tank in your car, it is not instant, but the limit is size of pipe and being so short it can be quite large. The old petrol pumps would mix the petrol in a large glass, you would order 3 gallons of 98% and it would pump so much from the high octane tank and so much from low octane tank as a kit I was fascinated talking about around 60 years ago. And once mixed it was put in the cars tank. If the garage attendant wanted he could mix it before you drew up to the pump.

In the same way an electric point could in theory charge a reservoir local to the point so the fuel supply from the main supply, power station, is constant, the reservoir takes our the peaks and troughs of the supply, so transfer could be speeded up, but not really by that much, what ever you do, transferring energy will take time. And it all needs transporting to point of use.

What it means in real terms is we will need larger capacity batteries, with petrol 300 miles seems to be around the standard, and if we divide 300 by 40 which is a reasonable average speed you have 7.5 hours which is really long enough for any one to drive for. So start the day with a full reservoir enough to do 300 miles and it should be good enough for most people. But 100 miles is simply not enough range.
 
TBF, charging overnight is what most people will do. And TBH I hadn't thought about the fact that most people will. The filling station fuel-dispenser to charging station charging-point transition does not need to be 1:1, or anything like.

People's mileage will of course vary, and we are going to have to invest in an electricity network which can deliver the energy required.

But if everybody could wake up every morning to a car with a full fuel tank, I wonder how many would ever need to visit a filling station again?
 
TBF, charging overnight is what most people will do. And TBH I hadn't thought about the fact that most people will.
Indeed. I think that's what most of us have assumed, and the reason why threads here about EV charging almost invariably relate to installation of 'home charging' facilities. There is, however, the issue of getting one's vehicle close enough to the 'home charging connection' - which would be difficult (at least, difficult to guarantee) or impossible in a fair proportion of cases.
People's mileage will of course vary, and we are going to have to invest in an electricity network which can deliver the energy required.
Most discussions here, and elsewhere, about electricity provision over the next few decades have related to concerns that, as things are going, there are uncertainties whether we will have the generating capacity to cope with present-day demands (i.e. with minimal EV charging), with all sorts of fears about 'rationing' etc. - so there has got to be even more uncertainty as to what would happen if there were a very substantial increase in demand due to EVs.
But if everybody could wake up every morning to a car with a full fuel tank, I wonder how many would ever need to visit a filling station again?
That obviously depends on (a) as above, whether they are able to (reliably or at all) get their car close enough to a home charging connection and (b) whether their driving is such that the car's 'range' is adequate for their home-to-home round trips.

Kind Regards, John
 

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