Obligations Under Part P

[Blue70]

I've had an extension built which involved some notifiable electrical work -New light in kitchen, new sockets in kitchen & utility room, new lights in new bathrooms, wiring in of whirlpool bath and a new ring main.

When the work was finished I was given, via my builder, a DCM4 certificate from the sparky. This certificate, which is in two parts, has all of his details, the date and location of the work and a grid showing new circuits, sockets, light points etc. It does not show any membership number relating to a competent person scheme.

I have been told by the building inspector that if the electrician was Part P qualified and able to self certify then he must belong to one of the regulatory bodies, notify them of the work he has completed and they will in turn notify the local building control dept.

That has not been done. I am in the process of speaking to my builder to find out what the score is but would I be right in saying that either this sparky is not able to self certify in which case I will have to pay the building control dept to send out an inspector or he is able to self certify and has neglected to send notification to the right people (or he isn't qualified at all but I'd rather not consider that!!)

I just want to make sure that I understand how the system works because I obviously wont be happy with my builder if he has used a sparky that can't self certify when he told me that he can.

 

[ColJack]

the extension itself would have come under the building regulations of which Part P is only one part..

the Builder is responsible for conformity to the building regs and as such should have notified the LABC and submitted FULL plans for the extension..

 

[rebuke]

For (notifiable) domestic electrical work, you either have to be registered under a competent persons scheme (at which point you can self certify - see www.competentperson.co.uk for a list of registered people/companies), or notify building control in advance.

If you are a qualified electrician (I think it's normally 2391 they want) then most building controls will accept an installation certificate / minor works certificate and not come out and test themselves, but if you're a DIYer, or unqualified, then it's building controls responsibility to come out and inspect and test.

Given you mention a building inspector, I presume the extension was notified to them as a whole, at which point whoever completed the paperwork should have said what they were going to do in order to comply with Part P. Unfortunately, often a builder will subcontract out the electrical work, and forget about it - normally this is fine as if the spark is a member of a competent person scheme, he just self certifies as normal. The problem comes when they're not, if you haven't notified in advance, you will probably have to pay a (higher) regularisation fee to building control, in order to have them issue a completion certificate...

 

[Blue70]

the extension itself would have come under the building regulations of which Part P is only one part..

the Builder is responsible for conformity to the building regs and as such should have notified the LABC and submitted FULL plans for the extension..

Yes full plans were submitted for building regs approval which was granted. The building inspector has carried out his final inspection on the 'building works' which have passed. It is just the electrics that are causing the delay.

Rebuke - Many thanks for your info that has clarified matters. I had already tried searchingon the website you mentioned. The electrician doesn't come up but I only have his name, I don't know if he uses a trading name or not.

I'm going to give the builder a week to sort things out and come up with some information before I chase him up.

 

[ericmark]

Forget www.competentperson.co.uk according to that site there are no Part P registered electricians in Flintshire. It has already been discussed on this forum it is grossly inaccurate. And not updated.

The DCM4 form is NICEIC version of the installation certificate but not Part P it is what is submitted to the LABC for Part P. Since the work will have been under to control of the LABC it is possible the spark did not self certify as should be done by council anyway as the whole job would come under their control.

So any spark spark could have done your installation he would have not needed to be Part P registered.

This is one of the problems as once building control have been informed work is to be carried out they are responsible for site safety. But they are council workers and are known for being lazy. And will try to wangle out of doing work if they can.

Have you submitted the DCM4 form to the LABC they will want to view it?

 

[rebuke]

For reference, I just put Flintshire in to www.competentperson.co.uk and it came back with 23 results, so it does seem to work...

 

[Spark123]

What colour was the form?

 

[ericmark]

For reference, I just put Flintshire in to www.competentperson.co.uk and it came back with 23 results, so it does seem to work...

Just re-tested and this time it has come up with results but there are some glaring omissions for example Delta Rock, Scottish Power (Or Manweb as it was known) as two examples.
Both in Flintshire. With such big names missing it does not give one much confidence as being a reliable site. And as such I would not recommend it.

It will help you find a registered electrician but it will not tell you if the one you have found is registered.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Delta Rock should be embarrassed by their web site!
They look like an industrial electrical co. And PArt P is domestic.

Not sure if ScotPower would be members of one of teh schemes either?

 

[Spark123]

The first one you link to appears to be an Industrial Electrical Engineering website (with a really annoying piano tune) - non domestic so don't need to be a member of a competent person scheme for Part P.
Isn't Scottish power the DNO that looks after the grid? I didn't think their part came under Part P but have never really looked at it to find out for sure.

 

[ericmark]

Delta Rock is Part P. And although Scottish Power is a supplier they also do domestic work as well. I will guess they are National rather than local so have not come up but shows the web site does not work. Also if I enter post code CH7 which is only Mold I get twice as many results as Flintshire.

So although it may be OK to find a company it can't tell you if the company is registered.

 

[flameport]

Delta Rock ARE listed on that site.
Searching for Delta Rock goes straight to the required info. Or their complete postcode, or just CH5.

They are not listed under 'Flintshire' because the address on the site does not have that word in it.
The details on that site are obtained from the various scheme providers - you can't blame that site for wrong information. The county is not a required part of the address anyway.

Scottish Power are not listed on the site because they don't do domestic installation work.
http://www.scottishpower.com/OurBusinesses.htm

 

[ericmark]

From 1974 to 1996 there was a county called Clwyd. But this was gone by time any Part P regulations were ever thought of. There is still of course a Vale of Clwyd following the river of the same name.
All Part P notifications have to be returned to the county council and there is no excuse for not knowing which county the firms as based in.
The river Dee and the river Clwyd are very different and there is no way any firm can be both in Deeside and Clwyd they are different rivers in different valleys. Maybe Corwen could lay claim to both names as the Clwyd starts only 5 miles from Corwen in the Clocaenog Forest which was in Merionethshire but now is part of Denbighshire and the Dee runs through the middle of the town. Although Deeside has only been used to refer to the Welsh area which is close to the canalised part of the estuary and river up to Chester. The boarder still follows the path of the pre-canalised river which means Chester Football Club pitch is fully in Wales although the Car Park is in England.
I am sure people in Yorkshire do not refer to their county as Ouse. Can you ever see a Ouse County Cricket Club? So why call any area of Wales Clwyd. The government directive in 1974 clearly said the County of Flintshire, Denbighshire etc would still exist but there would be an administration area called Clwyd. So there was never any need for Clwyd to have appeared on any address.

As to MANWEB I will agree there is nothing on their web site about them doing domestic work and I wonder if they are using another name for their domestic side. I know I have worked for them doing domestic work fitting cookers etc. Which were sold in the MANWEB showrooms.

It seems it is all down to badly entered addresses. I tried other companies I have worked for like Laing O'Rourke who I know had a housing division and Crown House which was part of same firm and nothing showed up. I will guess they have bought out another load of firms and it will be registered under one of their may acquisitions.

However although with exhaustive searches you may find the company who has completed the work listed because of the errors in the addresses one could be caught out very easy as I was and think the firm is not registered when they are by some other name or address.

Is it so hard to list firms by their proper address? I blame old PC software which uses drop down boxes which have not been updated in 12 years. i.e. Before windows 95.

 

[Blue70]

Ericmark - Thanks for your info. Just to clarify from the paperwork that my electrician has completed (DCM4) would you assume that he is not able to self certify? and secondly I did offer to send the DCM4 to the building inspector but he didn't want it. He is only interested in either the sparky self certifying or getting the council inspector out to do it (At a cost of £230!!)

Am I also right in saying that if he wasn't going to self certify he should have notified building contraol in advance (or I should have or the builder) so that they could come out and inspect the electrical works as they were installed or is there a different reason for telling the council in advance that the sparky can't self certify?? Hope that makes sense .....

Spark123 - The DCM4 form is white with green writing and boxes. It says 'This form is based on the model Electrical Installation Certificate shown in appendix 6 of BS 7671' along the bottom. I have the copy marked 'Original' on the right hand side. The second piece of paper is a grid which shows Circuit Details on one side and Test Results on the other. The grid has obviously been completed with details of the circuits that he installed.

Thanks again for all the replies but I would be interested in any other advice that anyone has.
I basically want to know how the system works so that I can sort this out and make sure that either party isn't having me over .........

 

[ericmark]

I think your being stitched up by council! I know around here where an extension is built the wiring is often included in the building inspection done by the county.
If it is an electrician who is doing the work often they will accept the installation cert off electrician without re-inspecting themselves.
Here for £1000 worth of work the charge is £100 plus vat so £230 even if not part of building work would be well over the top.
Problem is at end of the day although builders or electricians may assist by dealing with building control it is your responsibility. I think this is crazy as often the house holder hasn't a clue anyway.
If an electrician says he is registered when he is not then he has committed a crime but on a site where building control is already involved he would not deal with them direct and it would be hard to blame electrician.
If builder was dealing with building control for you may be he has made an error.
But on a number of forums we see reports about councils from hell again and again.
I would involve your MP. Only if the MP's realise there is a problem will anything get done.
Most electricians doing domestic work are registered and as such what the council does with Part P does not really effect them.
Except in some areas the council seem to be running their own registered electrician system where they will charge electricians less than the DIYer but since that is not the case here I only know what I have seen on forums.