Old style spur socket

[JohnW2]

.... This can be achieved either naturally or in the case of modern sealed properties with fans. .... I cannot stand the sound of fans so have never used them and have never had any trouble with condensation, mould or excessive smells.

As I just wrote, we seem to have managed for centuries/millennia without extractor fans.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I'm not sure that I fully understand what you are suggesting

Any air exchange needs to be done when required, not all the time, be it when I release gases after a night on porter, or moisture or temperature. To get up at 5 am is not my idea of fun, I want a device which says house is too hot, and the temperature outside is lower so run some fan or open some window.

So some "if this then that" or IFTTT system. Even if not internet connected. The whole system seems to revolve around a differential thermometer, I am sure I could write a PLC program to start or stop a fan, and yes I have a couple of spare PLC's, but at 71 how long can I look after a PLC controlled system? Well not so bad, I am sure my son could sort it, but really looking for a propriety system to control it, so when I am dead and gone, some one can repair it.

Maybe before that when will dementia kick in? I have not programmed a PLC for 15 years, how much can I remember? What I want is some off the shelf device.

 

[JohnW2]

Any air exchange needs to be done when required, not all the time, be it when I release gases after a night on porter, or moisture or temperature. To get up at 5 am is not my idea of fun, I want a device which says house is too hot, and the temperature outside is lower so run some fan or open some window.

Thanks. That's roughly what I thought you probably meant. Detection of "released gases" would probably be much more difficult, but I had assumed (perhaps wrongly) that, in this day and age, any half-decent aircon system would sense (indoor and outdoor) humidity and temperature, and then behave accordingly. It certainly doesn't sound like rocket science.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

As I just wrote, we seem to have managed for centuries/millennia without extractor fans.

We have through the ages done all sorts to keep the home comfortable be it under floor heating or a fire in the centre of our mud hut.

Be it a heat reflector (false floor above the main accommodation or shutter) or coal fires we have gone to great lengths to adjust the heat of our homes, the main change is how to do it with the minimum of manual adjustment, our parlour maid has long gone, we need technology to replace her.

We seem to consider air conditioning is air cooling, but be it adjusting the temperature or humidity it is still conditioning the air to suit the human. What we are looking at, is a way to do it without using loads of energy.

So we need some forecast, be it going to be cold tomorrow conserve all the heat you can, or going to be hot tomorrow lets get rid of as much heat as we can. And we want some "Smart" system to do this for us.

 

[JohnW2]

We seem to consider air conditioning is air cooling, but be it adjusting the temperature or humidity it is still conditioning the air to suit the human.

True, although some people are talking about considerations of the health/comfort of the building (condensation, mould, rot etc.) as wellas of the occupants.

So we need some forecast, be it going to be cold tomorrow conserve all the heat you can, or going to be hot tomorrow lets get rid of as much heat as we can. And we want some "Smart" system to do this for us.

Again, seemingly not rocket science. The primary control presumably has to be 'real-time', but an ability to 'look forward' could be some icing on that cake. Having said that, I don't think it's that common for temp/humidity to be very different 'tomorrow' than it was 'today', so I'm not sure how much need there is for that degree of attempted 'cleverness' 9quite apart from the mechanics of 'getting rid of' or 'conserving' heat fromday to day).

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

So have an AC exhausting though the chimney, the biggest problem is the amount of water it extracts, and having to empty the bottles of water.

A peristaltic pump is what is usually used, to pump the condensate down a small pipe and away to a drain.

I'm not convinced that it's as big an issue as you imply - after all, we managed for centuries/millennia, without extractor fans. We very rarely (need to) use the extractor in our kitchen

We managed, because we were prepared to live in a colder environment, where we simply put up with cold draughts. Homes are much better air sealed than they were, so now we need properly planned ventilation to keep the damp at bay.

I've never really understood indoor humidity levels. In the UK, outside humidity is generally 50%-100%, but everywhere inside my house is usually 50-70%, even when outdoor humidity is very high. Interesting, during the recent very hot spells, the indoor figure hear dropped to 25-30%

Green line is the indoor, which begins slightly higher than 60%, due to cooking and my having a bath yesterday. Blue line rises rapidly due to a thunderstorm at around 02:30 this morning. The blue falls to less than the indoor humidity, due to the environment drying with heat and sun. The indoor humidity remains fairly stable because it is a closed environment. Indoor humidity generally remains pretty detached from that outdoor, unless we have a rather long dry spell, as we recently had, when the indoor could drop below 40%.

 

[JohnW2]

We managed, because we were prepared to live in a colder environment, where we simply put up with cold draughts.

Quite so.

Homes are much better air sealed than they were, so now we need properly planned ventilation to keep the damp at bay.

You mean 'properly planned ventilation' to partially cancel the 'better air sealing'? I can think of an easier way of achieving the same end

Green line is the indoor, which begins slightly higher than 60%, due to cooking and my having a bath yesterday. Blue line rises rapidly due to a thunderstorm at around 02:30 this morning. The blue falls to less than the indoor humidity, due to the environment drying with heat and sun. The indoor humidity remains fairly stable because it is a closed environment. Indoor humidity generally remains pretty detached from that outdoor, unless we have a rather long dry spell, as we recently had, when the indoor could drop below 40%.

That all seems consistent with what I have experienced, and described in my previous post.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Again, seemingly not rocket science. The primary control presumably has to be 'real-time', but an ability to 'look forward' could be some icing on that cake. Having said that, I don't think it's that common for temp/humidity to be very different 'tomorrow' than it was 'today', so I'm not sure how much need there is for that degree of attempted 'cleverness' 9quite apart from the mechanics of 'getting rid of' or 'conserving' heat fromday to day).

We have the weather forecasts, so not really that difficult, but is it worthwhile doing? I think not worth the expense and something is trivially easy to do manually. The software to do it sounds to be not that difficult or expensive, it's the external items which would prove expensive and time consuming.

During to too warm weather, I simply made a point of opening the upstairs windows, back a front, to get maximum through flow and drew blinds to prevent the sun landing on things inside. I've not gone to bed, or had to get up at stupid o'clock, to open or close windows, it wasn't that critical.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

You mean 'properly planned ventilation' to partially cancel the 'better air sealing'? I can think of an easier way of achieving the same end

If that involves reducing the 'air sealing' then the cost of heat really goes out the window.

 

[Bouy]

Yes, I know…it was my attempt at humour!

Mmmmm? Keep the day job

 

[JohnW2]

We have the weather forecasts, so not really that difficult, but is it worthwhile doing?

As I wrote, I personally doubt it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

.... Homes are much better air sealed than they were, so now we need properly planned ventilation to keep the damp at bay.

You mean 'properly planned ventilation' to partially cancel the 'better air sealing'? I can think of an easier way of achieving the same end

If that involves reducing the 'air sealing' then the cost of heat really goes out the window.

I'm not really sure what sort of "properly planned ventilation" you are thinking of that does not involve 'heat going out of the window' - unless you invoke the complexity and cost of some heat recovery system.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I'm not really sure what sort of "properly planned ventilation" you are thinking of that does not involve 'heat going out of the window' - unless you invoke the complexity and cost of some heat recovery system.

Planned ventilation is where the moisture laden air is either not created at all, or sucked out at source - which is what a cooker hood venting to outdoors should do. Bathrooms, you draw the moist air out from the bathroom, rather than have it percolate round the rest of the house.

We see too regular posts about problem in bathrooms and kitchens in here, obviously due to improper ventilation.

 

[JohnW2]

Planned ventilation is where the moisture laden air is either not created at all ...

in that case, there would surely be no need for additional ventilation, 'planned' or otherwise, would there?

, or sucked out at source - which is what a cooker hood venting to outdoors should do. Bathrooms, you draw the moist air out from the bathroom, rather than have it percolate round the rest of the house.

Yes, but as I said, those ventilators will suck (heated) air from the rest of the house (forcing cold air from outside to be 'sucked into the house' somewhere) and discharge it into the outside world.

As I keep saying, as I see it unless one has sophisticated heat recovery, any extractor fan will inevitably result in expensively-heated air being expelled from the house and replaced with unheated air from outside.

We see too regular posts about problem in bathrooms and kitchens in here, obviously due to improper ventilation.

We do - but, as above, in the absence of some effective heat recovery system, providing 'proper ventilation' to address that issue (whether by opening a window or switching on a fan) will inevitably result in the loss of expensively-heated air.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Yes, but as I said, those ventilators will suck (heated) air from the rest of the house (forcing cold air from outside to be 'sucked into the house' somewhere) and discharge it into the outside world.

As I keep saying, as I see it unless one has sophisticated heat recovery, any extractor fan will inevitably result in expensively-heated air being expelled from the house and replaced with unheated air from outside.

Of course, but far less heat is sucked out by extraction at the source of the moisture, or etc., than if there is less well targetted ventilation and the quatity of extracted air can be much less.