Part P and Consumer

[ban-all-sheds]

Possibly not. (Are all holders of full driving licences competent drivers?)

Possibly not.

They ought to be good enough not to be a danger to others, and I'm not suggesting that 5-day wonders are unsafe, but to charge for your services you need to be better than the minimum safe level.

Would you think it right that someone could become a taxi driver on the day he passes his driving test, for example?

I expect higher standards than "he knows enough to be safe" from people who are professionals at something - a fact which can be attested to by, for example, the number of taxi firms and businesses with phone numbers on their vehicles who've had complaints from me about the poor driving of their guy behind the wheel.

But the vast majority of those who do the DISQ and EAL2 courses have already been charging for their services for years.

But not all. And I suspect an increasing number.

I freely admit that the system is not perfect and that, for every improver there is a chancer, deliberately working outside the law, but it's at least a step in the right direction.

It would have been a much better step if NICEIC had not decided to start registering people who don't have enough experience.

By all means have a system which allows people to get started, and become "improvers", and by all means for the domestic installation market strip away the unnecessary parts of the traditional full-C&G+long-apprenticeship route, but don't create a system which presents someone who's got a fairly basic qualification and no real experience as a professional who is fully accredited by a trade body.

 

[ColJack]

but that's the point...

people who do the "5 day course" become members of the Domestic Installer scheme..
whereas fully qualified sparks become members of the Approved Contractors scheme

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And NICEIC were fully aware of just how well the general public would be able to tell the difference, I suppose, when they decided that the interests of the general public would be best served by creating that new class of "NICEIC registered electrician"?

 

[dingbat]

I expect higher standards than "he knows enough to be safe" from people who are professionals at something - a fact which can be attested to by, for example, the number of taxi firms and businesses with phone numbers on their vehicles who've had complaints from me about the poor driving of their guy behind the wheel.

I just noticed your post count.

I apologise for encouraging you.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well excuse me for thinking that people who are paid to do something should be better at it than any amateur.

Would you suggest that someone who employs an electrician should be quite happy with one no better than an average DIYer?

Ditto plumbers, carpenters, tilers, plasterers......?

And damn right - if I have a taxi driver who thinks it's OK to overtake on the LHS on motorway entry sliproads, and who can't get the car sorted in terms of braking and gearchange before going into a corner, and carries on doing both as he goes round it (as happened to me a few weeks before Christmas), I'm going to complain to his employer.

 

[saxondale]

Well excuse me for thinking that

Would you suggest that someone who employs an electrician should be quite happy with one no better than an average DIYer?

Ditto plumbers, carpenters, tilers, plasterers......?

well there you go see, thats the "benchmark.." for a succesful claim according to trading standards.

 

[dingbat]

...people who do the "5 day course" become members of the Domestic Installer scheme..
whereas fully qualified sparks become members of the Approved Contractors scheme

But an Approved Contractor cannot self-certify his work as compliant with Building Regulations... to do so he must also register as a Domestic Installer.

'Domestic Installer' is not a grade of electrician, it is the name of the competent persons scheme run by the NICEIC.
Many fully qualified electricians are only enrolled as DIs because that is all they need to work without building control intervention.

Other organisations which run competent persons schemes use different names to mean the same thing; Domestic Installer just happens to be the one most widely recognised.

 

[ColJack]

didn't realise that..

I'd have thought that anyone that's an approved contractor would automatically be classed as a registered electrician as it's a harsher screening process..

 

[dingbat]

didn't realise that..

I'd have thought that anyone that's an approved contractor would automatically be classed as a registered electrician as it's a harsher screening process..

Nope, you don't need any further assessment, but you do need to apply for DI status. Have a look at the NICEIC website and enter your town for a contractor search. You'll notice that many have both AC and DI status.

 

[Pensdown]

Dingbat's correct and IMO this can confuse the customer. For example, an AC can carry out domestic periodic's but they cannot self certify any remedial works unless they also have DI status. On the other hand if a contractor only has DI status they shouldn't be doing domestic periodics but they can self certify a full re-wire.

I also know from experience that for some strange reason the NIC don't like granting DI status to AC's unless they actually carry out domestic installations on a regular basis.

 

[dingbat]

... if a contractor only has DI status they shouldn't be doing domestic periodics but they can self certify a full re-wire.

Testing and certifying any new work is much more straightforward than periodic inspection of existing installations.

And a full rewire is a far easier proposition than trying to alter an existing installation with a complex history.

As for carrying out periodics, it's simply a matter of competence (knowledge experience and skill) and there are plenty of DIs with more than enough and plenty of ACs with insufficient.

The NICEIC's stance is straightforward; you can issue certificates with their logo if you have been assessed by them as acceptably competent to do so. This applies as much to ACs as to DIs, but in the case of a DI the standard assessment only includes installation, so an additional assessment is required to establish competence to inspect and report.

 

[DESL]

This applies as much to ACs as to DIs, but in the case of a DI the standard assessment only includes installation, so an additional assessment is required to establish competence to inspect and report.

So what happens on a CU change?

Surely the level of intitial verification, inspection & testing is on a par with a PIR and requires all defects and ommissions to be made good.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Dingbat's correct and IMO this can confuse the customer. For example, an AC can carry out domestic periodic's but they cannot self certify any remedial works unless they also have DI status. On the other hand if a contractor only has DI status they shouldn't be doing domestic periodics but they can self certify a full re-wire.

Kerr-ching!

 

[dingbat]

So what happens on a CU change?

Surely the level of intitial verification, inspection & testing is on a par with a PIR and requires all defects and ommissions to be made good.

Quite right. This is a tricky one.

I don't have an answer, except to say that a DI is far more likely to exercise a duty of care in excess of the cowboys who have been doing un-certified CU changes for years, simply by dint of the fact that he has raised his head above the parapet and been counted.

 

[JohnD]

and he is pretty sure to own more than a neon screwdriver